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Author Topic:  [closed] Large GCC-5 TRANSITION, Heavy DIST-UPGRADE pending  (Read 81054 times)

madal

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Is someone going to inform us when it is safe to d-u?


I mean, how do I know if the blockers I currently have are due to kdenext not being finished yet; or if it is something I screwed up along the way?


madal

Offline absolut

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originally, Santa was handling the whole situation including packaging for and supporting the users (gcc transition, kdenext, etc).

after browsing through the thread here, i am not completely sure about the current state of the situation... it would be really sad to see him drop the support, particularly because I had a positive and uncomplicated siduction+kde life by following his advice. also, i doubt that there is anybody available right now who would be able to take the workload /responsibility actively supporting the average user base (like me, who need a productive system with as fluent upgrade path as possible)

Santa, or anybody from the core team, can you please comment on the support situation?

Offline devil

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The technical situation is as follows: We have two providers of KDE packages: one is debian unstable, the other is Santa's packages. Both rely in parts on Kubuntu's packaging, where Santa is involved as well. Historicaly over the past years, Debian's KDE packages were way behind upstream. Hence Santa started his own packaging by following upstream KDE as close as possible.


Siduction and it's users profited greatly from Santa's work and when the current transition started, he gave advice as how to handle the transition, which boiled down to waiting until things settled down. That was sound advice at the time, no matter which one of the two package streams you followed.


Along the way me and others in the team also started looking at how debian fares with respect to KDE in the transition and I transferred one of my systems from kdenext to pure debian and did a dist-upgrade, which was not easy at that point in time but worked out with lots of manual interception. Santa did not like this, as he probably thought, siduction was turning away from kdenext. I just did this in the best interest of our users.


What we have now is a situation where it is not clear if Santa will leave siduction or keep kdenext going for us. So right now, sound advice is hard to come by. What I can say is, that mixed systems (kdenext and switching to debian) will not work. If he really leaves, which I clearly do not hope, we will have to come up with a tool to convert users back to debian's packages regarding KDE.


It would be nice if Santa would chime in here and provide some clarity for users that make use of kdenext on what to expect and how to proceed. So please, as a kdenext user, have a little more patience, we will straighten the situation out as needed.

Offline absolut

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devil, thanks for your info

Offline ralul

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The technical situation is as follows: We have two providers of KDE packages: one is debian unstable, the other is Santa's packages. Both rely in parts on Kubuntu's packaging, where Santa is involved as well. Historicaly over the past years, Debian's KDE packages were way behind upstream.
Debian unstable has a long period of a freeze when it boiles down to fix bugs for the coming Debian release. Kubuntu instead of a 2-to-3 years release cycle has a determined half year release cycle, hence
Quote
Hence Santa started his own packaging by following upstream KDE as close as possible.
Santas way to closely follow Kubuntu instead is a great way to get more of Kde upstream releases available for siduction:
Quote
Siduction and it's users profited greatly from Santa's work and when the current transition started, he gave advice as how to handle the transition, which boiled down to waiting until things settled down. That was sound advice at the time, no matter which one of the two package streams you followed.
Because Santas advice was true for the whole of siduction at first: This thread was adopted by all users of siduction. But after a while the dark heavens of Debian unstable cleared. At this moment users could purge kdenext and dist-upgrade towards a pure Debian unstable. This thread, meant especially for kdenext users, became obsolete for others.

In the long run siduction would widely profit from Santas way to follow kubuntus half year cycle. Naturally he needs a bit more time after such a transition, because he must wait for the Debian fundamental changes to get ready before he can build his kdenext again.

Another way would have been to pull in all of kde foundations into kdenext. But the repo had emerge a fat beast then (all of qt-dev and more) with an additional disadvantage: Not to be compatible any more with Debian unstable. The thin way Santa chose only has the sole disadvantage to have to wait until clouds cleared.
« Last Edit: 2015/09/29, 22:23:19 by ralul »
experiencing siduction runs better than my gentoo makes me know I know nothing

Offline piper

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Both Debian and Ubuntu build their releases from Debian unstable

Ubuntu/Kubuntu is just a six month snapshot of the current debian sid.

Ubuntu and Debian packages are binary incompatible.
Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Santa

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Because Santas advice was true for the whole of siduction at first: This thread was adopted by all users of siduction. But after a while the dark heavens of Debian unstable cleared. At this moment users could purge kdenext and dist-upgrade towards a pure Debian unstable.


I repeat, again, that removing kdenext from sources.list and dist-upgrading is a very bad advice and a recipe to break your system. Also it's not true that "the dark heavens of Debian unstable cleared". I have been working lately on getting digikam and kaffeine (among others) installable.



This thread, meant especially for kdenext users, became obsolete for others.


This thread wasn't meant specially for kdenext users.



originally, Santa was handling the whole situation including packaging for and supporting the users (gcc transition, kdenext, etc).

after browsing through the thread here, i am not completely sure about the current state of the situation... it would be really sad to see him drop the support, particularly because I had a positive and uncomplicated siduction+kde life by following his advice. also, i doubt that there is anybody available right now who would be able to take the workload /responsibility actively supporting the average user base (like me, who need a productive system with as fluent upgrade path as possible)

Santa, or anybody from the core team, can you please comment on the support situation?



I'm working on the latest tweaks towards making the dist-upgrades safe again for KDE. The recommended way of proceed is still holding the dist-upgrade, and wait a few days for instructions. Please disregard any other advice as much as possible.


Rgarding my possible leaving of siduction, that will come later, you don't have to do anything special about that for now.

Santa

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Both Debian and Ubuntu build their releases from Debian unstable


No.

Ubuntu/Kubuntu is just a six month snapshot of the current debian sid.


No.


Ubuntu and Debian packages are binary incompatible.


Yes.


In any case I fail to see the relation of these statements with the GCC 5 transition.

Offline piper

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Quote from: Santa
Quote from: piper on Today at 05:02:47 PMBoth Debian and Ubuntu build their releases from Debian unstable

No.

Quote from: piper on Today at 05:02:47 PMUbuntu/Kubuntu is just a six month snapshot of the current debian sid.

No.


Quote from: piper on Today at 05:02:47 PMUbuntu and Debian packages are binary incompatible.

Yes.


In any case I fail to see the relation of these statements with the GCC 5 transition.

I took that directly from ubuntu's website or Canonical's, whichever one you want to look at

Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Santa

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Quote from: Santa
Quote from: piper on Today at 05:02:47 PMBoth Debian and Ubuntu build their releases from Debian unstable

No.

Quote from: piper on Today at 05:02:47 PMUbuntu/Kubuntu is just a six month snapshot of the current debian sid.

No.


Quote from: piper on Today at 05:02:47 PMUbuntu and Debian packages are binary incompatible.

Yes.


In any case I fail to see the relation of these statements with the GCC 5 transition.

I took that directly from ubuntu's website or Canonical's, whichever one you want to look at


In first place, I couldn't find such statements (at least exactly as you posted it) on any of the websites.


In second place, I don't really need to check a website to understand how debian and ubuntu development works: for sure, Ubuntu is not a 6 month snapshot of debian sid, there are differences and many packages which don't even exist in debian or are more updated and it's not the first time we import some of them here.


And I'm completely sure ubuntu builds their releases from ubuntu not from debian, that's obvious.


How is this related to the GCC 5 transition?

domicius

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Quote from: piper
I took that directly from ubuntu's website or Canonical's, whichever one you want to look at

Whoever is more knowledgeable could correct me here, but I think what you took directly from Ubuntu's/Canonical's websites is just a simplification of the matter. The real matter is it's not just a verbatim usage of Debian unstable packages (of course, but the statements above make it seem like it something that simple), there's a lot of continuous work involved in changing those packages, and that work can sometimes (most of the times?) be used in Debian, after additional work by Debian packagers (who are in some cases Ubuntu packagers as well). Additionally, I also fail to see how these facts have anything to do with the current situation.

Anyway, that's not the point of my post. The point is it really pains me (as I'm sure it pains others who aren't even posting) to see people misunderstanding each other in this thread.

I think this really hits the nail on why the misunderstanding started happening
Quote from: ralul
Because Santas advice was true for the whole of siduction at first: This thread was adopted by all users of siduction.

I for one silently "tolerated" so many of the "success" posts here even though they clearly were from people either 1) not using KDE 2) not using kdenext or 3) not using the packages that *I myself* use daily. So they didn't apply for me and I'm sure many others.

Now, does anybody thing a split of this thread is in order? I know it's not as simple as to say that this is just for kdenext folks, and others can discuss in another thread, but can one say if you've never used kdenext and don't rely on KDE packages at all, that it might be feasible for you to DU? (Still, I hope everybody uses common sense and doesn't blindly follow advices without looking what apt-get warns them).

Offline absolut

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<< posting cropped >>

originally, Santa was handling the whole situation including packaging for and supporting the users (gcc transition, kdenext, etc).

after browsing through the thread here, i am not completely sure about the current state of the situation... it would be really sad to see him drop the support, particularly because I had a positive and uncomplicated siduction+kde life by following his advice. also, i doubt that there is anybody available right now who would be able to take the workload /responsibility actively supporting the average user base (like me, who need a productive system with as fluent upgrade path as possible)

Santa, or anybody from the core team, can you please comment on the support situation?



I'm working on the latest tweaks towards making the dist-upgrades safe again for KDE. The recommended way of proceed is still holding the dist-upgrade, and wait a few days for instructions. Please disregard any other advice as much as possible.


Rgarding my possible leaving of siduction, that will come later, you don't have to do anything special about that for now.

Santa, thanks a lot for your response and advice!

Looking forward to new updates. Thanks a lot for your commitment. Very much appreciated!

Offline titan

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I think siduction is loosing  the plot. It is meant to be totally compatible with sid which this thread illustrates it is not. The devs should be supporting upgrading KDE with pure Debian repros only, not an incompatible  bespoke siduction/Ubuntu repro. I think a lot of users of kdenext will only be prolonging their transition back to kde sid.  There are plenty of other desktops available to use while waiting for KDE to emerge from the current transitional chaos. A lot of the current problems could have been avoided if the kdenext thread had been put into the experimental section of the forum and the main support for the gcc and qt5 transition pinned at the top of the upgrade section.

Offline piper

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Quote from: Santa
Quote from: piper on Yesterday at 06:06:25 PMQuote from: Santa

And I'm completely sure ubuntu builds their releases from ubuntu not from debian, that's obvious.



And I am leaving this at that  .........

I have never, in my lifetime seen anything like this

Why on earth does everyone in the debian world know this except you ?

Without debian and their packages, ubuntu WOULD NOT EXIST

I don't know where you have been since ubuntu came into this world, but, ubuntu has always been based and built on debian.

I have a hell of a lot to say on this subject Santa, but, I am biting my tongue and just let you think you know everything about debian, ubuntu, packaging, and reindeer.

After all,  I am just a moran right.

Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline horo

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Hi,

Me again - I want to bring my proposal from ^^^^ (far far above) to attention again - please split this topic into the original pro kdenext one (don't do anything until Santa tells you) and a more adventurous "I want to DU and I want it now!"-thread, with guidance how to pick up the pieces.
And maybe a third one with technical discussion without "ad-hominem" who is right and who is wrong - if a prudent moderator like e.g. devil would guide the hotheads we technical-minded users will benefit for sure.
THX

Ciao, Martin

P.S.: while typing I read piper's last post and it reinforces my opinion.

P.P.S.: Please stop "slam"ming siduction!
« Last Edit: 2015/09/30, 11:27:38 by horo »
omnia vincit pecunia :(