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Siduction Forum => Free Speech => Topic started by: dibl on 2015/07/31, 23:38:08

Title: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: dibl on 2015/07/31, 23:38:08
I am hoping to leave VMWare and their brittle proprietary code behind, and install a new Windows 10 VM to support a set of proprietary Windows apps that I need for some personal productivity work.  I have used vbox for a period of time a few years ago (the last time VMWare did this to me), but I recall there were limitations and hiccups with that also -- I recall USB support was strange and difficult.  Today I am playing with KVM and am just now finishing a test setup of Win 7 to see if I can master filesharing with the siduction host, etc.


What are the siduction users using to install and manage your VM guests?


Thanks!
Title: Re: Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: Runaway1956 on 2015/08/01, 03:50:50
I've always used VBox, since it was introduced by the original developers.  (We all know that Oracle did not develop VBox, right?) 

I've seldom had problems of any kind with it.  This past couple weeks, after purchasing an actual server board, I've had problems with Vbox and USB mouse.  Among my attempts to solve that problem, I downloaded and tried the latest and greatest VMWare.  Found that I had the same problems.  After reading some obscure posts on the matter, I ended up using a PS2 mouse, and the problems disappeared. 

Note that one of my primary reasons for getting this monster of a server board, is A: the CPU's support virtualization and B: the board supports LOTS of memory so that I don't have to starve the VM's for memory.

I am, right now, running three VM's with two gig of memory each, not to mention that I've created a two gig RAM drive for system caching, and I'm STILL only using 25% of my memory.

So, VirtualBox, all the way for me.
Title: Re: Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: melmarker on 2015/08/01, 12:06:58
@dibl: Virtualbox and kvm may be the best choices, afaik we don't support XEN with our kernel anymore, because XEN and a bleeding edge kernel may be not the best idea.
Title: Re: Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: mxmehl on 2015/08/01, 13:13:43
I'm also a quite happy VBox user. Of course I also ran in some problems (HW accelerated 3D support) but for "normal" usage it always worked quite good.

Needed to say is that VMware Pro offers some functionalities which are afaik not covered by VBox at the moment. Encryption is one of them, a little bit more intuitive network configuration the other I recall. But overall the advantages of using a Free Software solution overweights IMO.
Title: Re: Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: piper on 2015/08/01, 13:39:22
I also use vbox to test build iso's first, then use fromiso, then install ;)
Title: Re: Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: dibl on 2015/08/01, 20:00:01
Thanks folks!  I am getting along better than I expected with KVM, using Win 7 and Win 8 as test cases.  With spice-vdagent installed I can have a nice 1600x1050 display (on my 1920x1200 siduction desktop). It looks like samba is the required method for file sharing from the windows guest, and I've done that before although it's been awhile.  KVM seems to be easier on the cpu and memory resources than VMware was.  I think qemu/KVM is going to be a good solution and keep me out of the proprietary weeds for awhile.
Title: Re: Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: dibl on 2015/08/15, 14:56:36
Just to finalize this thread:  With Qemu/KVM, I now have a Win 10 VM that is performing as well, or better than my Win 7 and 8 VMs under VMware.  I have full USB connectivity.  The only functionality that I had with VMware that I don't have with KVM is guest/host filesharing.  However I can use either a USB stick or a cloud storage service to work around that, so I am very well satisfied with my new open source virtualization setup.


And if anyone wants hints about setting up a VM with KVM, I'll be happy to help.
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: melmarker on 2015/08/15, 21:52:17
dibl: it's a little bit overkill - but using samba might be a good idea
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: dibl on 2015/08/15, 22:07:41
It would not be overkill if it worked.   :(   With samba set up and running, from Win 10 I cannot see the host system but I can see another Linux system on my LAN, and I can copy files from it to Win 10, but I cannot write to it.  Some tiny little niggle, I'm sure, but after I spent an hour fooling with samba settings and permissions on folders, with no luck, I spent 2 minutes and used Google Drive.    ::)   It could be something in a Win 10 setting that I don't know about, or something non-obvious in KVM.
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: melmarker on 2015/08/15, 23:11:23
google drive is an option too :) - and yes, samba can be big PITA
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: KrunchTime on 2015/08/16, 04:22:15
I'm using VMware under Debian Stable.  I started out using VirtualBox, but grew tired of things breaking with new releases, mostly using USB devices from the guest system.  So far, I haven't had any issues with VMware.  As they say in the Linux world, "It just works."  Although, I will say that configuring disk sharing is arcane.  I just copy and paste between the host and guest; works for me.

@dibl...I've considered going the Qemu/KVM route, but heard it can be trying to set up.  Did you use any special sources of info in setting up your VM?

Just for info...the latest bug that affected VMs did not affect VMware.  The bug allowed malicious code to affect the host system from the guest system.
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: dibl on 2015/08/16, 14:59:51
Yes, VMware still runs fine on Stable. If you are satisfied to dual boot or otherwise keep a Stable system available, then you will probably be able to continue with VMware.  When it is working correctly, VMware is a really nice virtualization platform -- no doubt about it.  I have been a VMware user for probably 8 years now, on sid systems, to support a set of proprietary Windows apps that do not have any comparable Linux equivalents.


When the Big Kernel Lock came out of the Linux kernel in 2011, VMware was broken for 5 or 6 months. During that time I used VirtualBox.  It worked well enough, but USB support was difficult and I don't remember whether I ever got guest/host filesharing to work or not.  As soon as VMware caught up to the Linux kernel again, I switched back.  I have noticed that the vbox users periodically post on this forum about breakages and/or questions about which version of the base and guest additions packages are currently working on sid.  If you read down this experimental forum, you will see that there have been a series of breaks in the VMware module compiler that have required patches, up until recent times.  Now their code is so broken that it can't be patched.  I'm sure their developers will once again catch up, eventually.  I just got tired of their fragile code breaking all the time, leaving me unable to do productive work on my sid system.


Quote
@dibl...I've considered going the Qemu/KVM route, but heard it can be trying to set up.  Did you use any special sources of info in setting up your VM?


The first thing that I learned is, the world is waiting for a current, comprehensive guide.  Yes, it was far less than obvious how to get my VM set up.  The information is scattered, obsolete in some cases, and wrong in some cases.  Having stumbled and bumbled through it one time, I don't yet feel qualified to write a guide, because I am not sure which of the many stabs I took were the ones that led to correct performance.  But I'm considering reconfiguring a computer here and going through it again, using my notes and errors from the first time, and writing a "How to" guide just to contribute something useful, since it apparently does not exist.  The Debian KVM wiki is probably the closest to correct, but there are multiple gaps and errors in it.  The KVM site is painfully obsolete and incomplete. You'll never find a complete list of the packages that you need to install to get the job done.  So that's where we are today.
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: KrunchTime on 2015/08/17, 07:27:31
@dibl:  Yes, I've always dual-booted Stable and Sid.  That way if something breaks in Sid, I still have a working computer.


I thought one of the Linux magazines recently did a short review/tutorial on Qemu/KVM.  I'll have to dig around and see what I have.


Perhaps VMware doesn't officially support or run under Debian Unstable.  Perhaps VM is too much voodoo for an Unstable environment.  I've always had apprehensions about running VM technology under Unstable, so I just run it under Stable.


If you ever decide to use VirtualBox again, I put together a how-to on setting up a Windows 7 guest under a Linux host (CrunchBang) over in the CrunchBang forums:


http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=36436 (http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=36436).


There shouldn't be much difference between Windows 7 and later versions of Windows.
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: dibl on 2015/08/17, 17:10:54

If you ever decide to use VirtualBox again, I put together a how-to on setting up a Windows 7 guest under a Linux host (CrunchBang) over in the CrunchBang forums:


http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=36436 (http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=36436).



Wow -- beautiful job there -- congratulations!
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: KrunchTime on 2015/08/18, 08:36:10
^ Thank you!
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: KrunchTime on 2015/09/11, 07:26:49
I read the following about VM software in the May 2015 (197) issue of Linux Format:

VMware and Virtualbox both rely on kernel-specific modules being loaded in order to work their magic.

-- Desktop Virtualisation Roundup, pg 25
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: dibl on 2015/09/11, 12:15:42

VMware and Virtualbox both rely on kernel-specific modules being loaded in order to work their magic.



Correct.  In the case of VMware, the utility that builds the modules for the running kernel is, IMHO, a brittle and fragile piece of code that often falls behind the development of the Linux kernel, resulting in failures to build the modules correctly. Often skilled users have built and shared patches to overcome the deficiencies.  But twice in the past 7 years it has been so badly broken that it can't be fixed with a patch, leaving users with a choice to either run their VMs on an older Linux platform or find some other virtualization package.  I'm glad I went through some pain to switch to KVM -- it seems quite solid.
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: KrunchTime on 2015/09/12, 11:51:27
But twice in the past 7 years it has been so badly broken that it can't be fixed with a patch, leaving users with a choice to either run their VMs on an older Linux platform or find some other virtualization package.  I'm glad I went through some pain to switch to KVM -- it seems quite solid.
Hmmm...was that mostly an issue on Debian Testing or Unstable?
Title: Re: [SOLVED] Virtualization -- Which VM Software?
Post by: dibl on 2015/09/12, 13:49:16

Hmmm...was that mostly an issue on Debian Testing or Unstable?

It was an issue on all newer Linux kernels, regardless of the distribution.  For me it was Debian unstable, but it happened to Fedora, Arch, OpenSUSE, and any other users who installed new kernels too.  I have the impression that VMware's development resources are prioritized in such a way that the screaming from the Linux user community has to reach a certain decibel level before they will put some resources on updating their module compiler for the next structural change in the Linux kernel.

Typical problems: here (https://communities.vmware.com/message/2481807#2481807), here (https://communities.vmware.com/message/2533992#2533992), and here (https://communities.vmware.com/message/2504050#2504050).