During a round of updates about 60 days ago I lost Siduction 11.
So, I reinstalled Siduction 12. To date I have stayed clear of updates.
I understand that Siduction is a marriage of Unstable Sid and Testing Wheezy. I also have a Squeeze and Wheezy install and these do get whatever updates are available. They have both survived without pinning.. http://wiki.debian.org/AptPreferences
My questions are (as I take on 22 Updates and 2 new Packages) is everyone updating Siduction as needed? Is anyone Pinning app preferences?
Lastly, Is anyone losing their installs either in 11 or 12 after a round of updates?
Thanks
EDIT: just changed the above to 22 updates... Forgot to change the sources on reinstall to US they are NZ by my download's default... Don't no why as I downloaded the iso from a US University..
IMPORTANT: read "update" as "dist-upgrade" as with siduction we don't ever "update".
Quote from: "sqlpython"During a round of updates about 60 days ago I lost Siduction 11.
So, I reinstalled Siduction 12. To date I have stayed clear of updates.
Did you ever read releasenotes, manual, did you follow any thread about howto update?
QuoteI understand that Siduction is a marriage of Unstable Sid and Testing Wheezy.
Where did you read this nonsense? Siduction is Debian/sid compatible, nothing else.
QuoteI also have a Squeeze and Wheezy install and these do get whatever updates are available. They have both survived without pinning.. http://wiki.debian.org/AptPreferences
So why don't you regularly update siduction as it is advised in about 1000 threads?
QuoteMy questions are (as I take on 480 Updates and 14 new Packages) is everyone updating Siduction as needed?
Everyone exept one person.
QuoteLastly, Is anyone losing their installs either in 11 or 12 after a round of updates?
You loose nothing by regular updates, in rare cases with an update *after* much time without update an installation can become too difficult to repair for an unexperienced user.
Ok now that I have Updated the US repositories I am informed of 491 updates..
I an not doing this until I get some feedback.. Yikes!!!
..Don't want to break anything. Although I believe this should work fine.
Dist-upgrade is what you want. I do 3 per day.
greetz
devil
I do 2-3 times a week. usually erverything works fine.
On my parents computer I do it every 3-6 months, usually everything is fine too, but of course its still a computer with no security updates!
Thanks for your kind response.. in a community based OS bouncing procedures off of other members sometimes gets new results..
I was aware of the siduction manual article regarding APT and the dist-upgrade. However in version 11 I had attempted to use synaptic which seemed convenient but not the best idea. After years of
apt-get upgrade
..you get accustom to doing so.
I will note your prescription. {smile}
Edit: Yours also Lanzi :^)
@Michaa7
I am assuming your post reads as it does due to English not being your 1st language. As it sounds a bit abrasive and condescending as phrased.
In fact I thought for a moment I was on an FreeBSD or Aptosid forum.. heh heh
no worries though.. :^)
However, I wanted to address a point or 2 for you.
Regarding Reading Docs:
I have been using and Installing LINUX now for 17 years and have probably read hunreds of thousands of pages of Docs in that time. I have likely installed over 150 distros at 10 per year. I also develop desktop apps which is fun. However, admittedly there are still LINUX items that I do not know and that will always be so. This fact also holds true for you and I am sure you know that fact. I do find the community the best platform to bounce questions off of even if I think I know the answers. That is half the fun of LINUX. Don't you agree?
Regarding
"Where did you read this nonsense?"
When you boot or shutdown Siduction the terminal clearly displays..
Debian GNU wheezy/sid so some dev believes that this identifies that which we are booting.
as a young friend of mine once said..
Do you read anything? as in
QuoteDid you ever read releasenotes, manual, did you follow any thread about howto update?
Don't take LINUX too too serious.. ;^)
Take in deep breaths through your nose. Breath out through your mouth or breath into a paper bag... LOL just joking... peace and enjoy..
Quote
When you boot or shutdown Siduction the terminal clearly displays..
Debian GNU wheezy/sid
so some dev believes that this identifies that which we are booting.
That line is inserted by debian, as they do not distinguish between the 2, as none of them gets released by them. The things we pull from debian, we do solely pull from sid aka unstable.
greetz
devil
I dist-upgrade about every 1.5 weeks. In rare cases it's a month.
Even then there's no problems.
-H
QuoteThe things we pull from debian, we do solely pull from sid aka unstable.
Thank you sir, for the clarification.. noted..
@hinto
Thank you my friend. That sounds about right for my purposes.
@ sqlpython
"abrasive" sounds like a fitting description, I have nothing against this. OTOH, being compared with some Aptisod guys isn't really what I want.
Is it really too rough to spell something out for somebody?
Hello,
QuoteIs it really too rough to spell something out for somebody?
hmmm, I think, for some people this kind of spelling out implicates, that they're idiots.
It could be understood as a reproach.
And there is a difference between:
Please don't use upgrade in Sid, only use dist-upgrade, and read our manual carefully
and
QuoteDid you ever read releasenotes, manual, did you follow any thread about howto update?
Next step, the weezy/sid mixture. A possible reaction could be:
Please ignore the output weezy/sid of the prompt, siduction bases on Debian Sid, read our manual carefully.
Your kind of answear:
QuoteWhere did you read this nonsense? Siduction is Debian/sid compatible, nothing else.
But in a lot of other threads your answears are friendly and very helpful, M-Audio card works like a charme :-)
Micha, my comment should not be an offense, but I try to understand the situation of @sqlpython after such kind of answear.
Kind regards,
Holger
^ Always good too spell things out. Serves not only those asking but if correct instructive for those searching..
Quotebeing compared with some Aptisod guys isn't really what I want.
viewing it objectively though by comparision to...You could get a job there. If you used that post as a resume' .. :)
Anyhow, I should also say
Thank You. You always get points for JSU (just showing up).. and you put some important info on the table. Does not matter if I believe that it applies to me or not... just me being selfish.. :^)
Don't be a stranger.. peace
@sqlpython: If nobody else mentioned it before, I would welcome you to siduction! :-)
Even if you already have more than 50 postings, I have the impression, that you are quite new to our little family.
You will appreciate being here a you will get a very nice distro with a lot of the devs and other helpful hands around, always trying to help and make linux better!
If our english sometimes seems less polite, I beg for patience and forgiveness, since a lot of ppl here have english a second or third language.
ok, so we are doing some lessons and brush up my diplomatic skills:
I am polite, and I am rough. Maybe I wanted to reproach, I for sure didn't want to offend. But I still cannot understand how someone can install an OS without any basic info. I mean "RTFM" is seldomly the right answer, but I remembered sqlpython by his avatar and thus knew he wasn't a complete newbee. An with 17 years of linux experience I would assume someone has done some basic homework before even installing something. That's different from someone coming from windows who knows nothing.
So if my answers really remind you Aptosid people, I have to think it over. But still, I wanted to be clear, and if this borders a reproach, I do not have much against it.
Dammit ... maybe I better shut up .. for a while.
You are right, me too ;-)
Is it just me ... I see nothing wrong with this
QuoteIWhere did you read this nonsense? Siduction is Debian/sid compatible, nothing else.
DistroWatch.com: siduction
The siduction distribution is a desktop-oriented operating system and live medium based on the "unstable" branch of Debian GNU/Linux
also doing a google search (or any search engine) brings up
https://www.google.com/search?q=siduction
English is my language and I don't get what the problem is :?:
Is it aptosid ? or is it because ...
The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult. The day he forgives himself, he becomes wise.
Alden Nowlan
@Lanzi
Thanks for the thought .. :^)
@Michaa7
QuoteI would assume someone has done some basic homework before even installing something.
You are not wrong but in my case the
Problem is this.... I have 7 running computers on 2 networks.
Each hard drive with a number of partitions and each machine installed with many different distros. I have been this way for years... Just look at the Thinkpad on which I am now typing. The Thinkpad has installs of Arch, Slackware, CrunchBang, Squeeze, Wheezy and Siduction. Some of the other machines have flavors ArchBang, Centos, Scientific, Solaris, PClinuxOS, Kubuntu, PCbsd, DesktopBSD, Lbuntu and FreeBSD. I have dev tools on almost every set up and move development from partition to partiton. I have copies of the same C++,, Java and Python code everywhere. All depends where I am hanging out for the day...very, very messy.
So, As I use different OS/Distros I do overlook the obvious sometimes.. Sometimes as I work I just forget where I am ...LOL
Now was that a kldload or a modprobe.. you see..
Not an excuse just the way it is.
I will and do forget the obvious and then Bang my head against the wall for the stupidity of it all.
Maybe I am drawn here because ..LOL... like Sid, I am unstable (a bit)..
Next time you notice me making what seems to be an obvious mis step just say to yourself..
Humph! it's just sqlpython. Probably working with GNU Hurd again today.... I will just point the sorry excuse for a nerd in the right direction and just step away.. LMAO
@piper
Quote
English is my language and I don't get what the problem is
You are from a town named Cheektowaga and you can say that with a straight face..
Just joking I could resist.. {smile}
Joking aside with apologies to your Town..
I don't really see it as a problem either but just wanted to point out that it was not nonsense and did exist somewhere,, and it was Courteousy of Debian Devs.
I don't just make make stuff up.... Weelll sometimes I do but that aside. ;^)
Hello,
so after pointing out by different useres here, that everything is okay, we're happy again and start with a nice new day :-)
Kind regards,
Holger
Always go to init 3, don't use synaptic (unless you want to use it for a "viewer"). Only use dist-upgrade, never upgrade.
I update my own siduction machines every day or two. A couple of family members have older sidux systems that only get updated a few times per year, but as long as the hardware holds up, the Gnu/Linux keeps on running.
Hello @dibl and others,
one thing, I allways use apt and the option update, because this refresh the repo data :-)
So with update there is nothing wrong under Debian Sid, but then you should use dist-upgrade and not upgrade.
And now I'll confess you a secret: I often use the konsole under KDE or synaptic to search, install or update my complete siduction system.
I don't want to provoke but in some cases of strongly broken dependencies it makes no difference between Runlevel three or five for the chance to get a broken package management.
But my recommandation for all people, who ask, how to make dist-upgrades, is runlevel three :-)
Kind regards,
Holger
Quote from: "holgerw"
one thing, I allways use apt and the option update, because this refresh the repo data :-)
mehhhhh -- I was writing too early in the morning, before I was awake! Yes of course you are correct -- fixing my post now.
Thanks!
@dibl says;
QuoteAlways go to init 3, don't use synaptic
Really is sound advice though admittedly I stay in 5..
Can't seemed to be bothered with a simple
telinit 3 to console mode... I pop open a console but will try to discipline myself.
@holgerew says:
Quote
one thing, I allways use apt and the option update,............
So with update there is nothing wrong under Debian Sid, but then you should use dist-upgrade and not upgrade.
Now there is a discipline that I always reccommend and follow. As not doing so has caused me grief in the past..
And also
apt-get update once again upon finishing the upgrade. There are times when some broken packages will surface which can usually be fixed via..
apt-get install -falthough I also get positive repair results with
apt-get update -f... yet I have not seen it documented in this way..
Quote from: "sqlpython"admittedly I stay in 5..
The devs say that under certain circumstances (during X server upgrades) that could cost you your X display setup and/or user login.
Quote
Really is sound advice though admittedly I stay in 5..
Can't seemed to be bothered with a simple telinit 3 to console mode... I pop open a console but will try to discipline myself.
After years of testing this, sooner or later, it will bite you in the ass, especially kde, x, yes, losing login is a common one
there's no place like 127.0.0.1
there's no place like ::1 (for those who have completed the transition to IPv6)
Just did a dist-upgrade on a new KDE install.
apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade covers a multitude of sins ;)
I now have wobbly windows in KDE.
-Hinto
Hello @piper,
QuoteAfter years of testing this, sooner or later, it will bite you in the ass, especially kde, x, yes, losing login is a common one
After using sid stuff since Debian Woody there were some circumstances, which broke my package management, but this had not to do with runlevel 3 or 5.
For dist-upgrades on the PC of my father, I use x based teamviewer. All nvidia and vbox stuff was build properly after every DU in the past. On my siduction machines and that of my wife I do the same. And there was nothing biting in our ass :-)
Sorry, but in 2012 after 20 years developement of Linux, package management and so on I expect an upgrade mechanism which does not break anything when using a gui.
Okay, we using a rolling release here. But PCLOS also is a rolling release, OpenSUSE Tumbleweed or an OpenSUSE with extra KDE4 repo is also a rolling release. And there breaks nothing, when using synaptic or yast gui for making complete DUs.
But once again:
My recommandation for all people, who ask, how to make dist-upgrades, is runlevel three@sqlpython: apt-get update does not finish any Upgrade. It refreshes repo data, nothing more. Please read the apt man page.
Kind regards,
Holger
@sqlpython, this may not add much to the discussion, but I am a newbie user, I do dist-upgrades every day, and it has never caused me any problems. I do my dist-upgrades in init 3.
Tim
You get to keep the pieces when it breaks. And it will.
edit: misread. init 3 is of course ok.
greetz
devil
^not sure why anyone would resist init 3?
-H
Quote from: "holgerw"...
Sorry, but in 2012 after 20 years developement of Linux, package management and so on I expect an upgrade mechanism which does not break anything when using a gui.
...
To me this boils down to: GUI is good, CLI is bad.
But in real computer live a GUI is kind of a window with a wall around it, a peephole. And for administrative purposes this peephole is often insufficient.
For d-u best is to get used to the CLI. We all should discipline ourselves to do so and whereever possible encourage other people to use CLI with its drawbacks and advantages.
To put it in a nutshell using your example:
Do you expect changing your wheels on your (or someones) car while you are driving around? After more than 100 years of car developement? On the 'Tour de France' they already are doing it with bikes.
A few years ago Debian made a service restart of dbus when upgrading. This had to crash the windowing system and therefore the DU run in runlevel 5. This is no more the case. But it is saver and more reliable to do your DU in runlevel 3.
... there is a package "debian-goodies" having checkrestart! The same what in opensuse "zypper ps"
Quote from: "holgerw"
Sorry, but in 2012 after 20 years developement of Linux, package management and so on I expect an upgrade mechanism which does not break anything when using a gui.
I would say that statement is true, for stable distributions.
But, here we are not using a stable distribution. For a developmental distribution branch, where there is no developer commitment to maintain continuously functional GUI during display software transitions, going to init 3 is a reasonable requirement, IMHO. Actually it's amazing to me that a periodic reboot is not required.
I like this reasoning.
Hello,
please don't me understand in a wrong way:
I do not recommend others to do a dist-upgrade in Runlevel 5.
QuoteTo me this boils down to: GUI is good, CLI is bad.
Micha, an interesting interpretation of my comment, but sorry, where did I write, that cli is bad and gui is good?
Sometimes I use KDE konsole and apt-get for dist-upgrades, sometimes I do it in Runlevel 3. But what I do to avoid trouble is the following,
to make a complete dist-upgrade before adding new software. To forgot this it can lead to broken dependencies, because the new package can be build against newer versions of other packages as installed.
QuoteDo you expect changing your wheels on your (or someones) car while you are driving around? After more than 100 years of car developement?
Sorry, but I wonder a little bit about this comparism. Also in Runlevel 3 a PC is running, and Linux runs a lot of daemons and other stuff also in Runlevel 3. And all this stuff can break.
QuoteWe all should discipline ourselves to do so and whereever possible encourage other people to use CLI with its drawbacks and advantages.
I've no problem to accept that DU in Runlevel 3 is a little bit more secure and I repeat it again:
If other people ask, I recommend Runlevel 3. But sorry, we're adults here and nobody here should forbid me telling others of my experiences with dist-upgrades.
I've no problem if somebody says to me: Holger, to make DUs in Runlevel 5 is stupid, but then I expect a technical explaination, like this comment of @ralul:
QuoteA few years ago Debian made a service restart of dbus when upgrading. This had to crash the windowing system and therefore the DU run in runlevel 5. This is no more the case. But it is saver and more reliable to do your DU in runlevel 3.
Comparisons with bikes, cars or other stuff, which have not to do with computers and operation systems, are not very helpful here.
Kind regards,
Holger
Yeah, most important:a complete dist-upgrade before adding new software
My rule of thumb is that I install packages (where I can see the dependencies) in synaptic. I do dist-upgrades in init 3. I'm potentially changing the engine out from under me.
-Hinto
@all:
As holgerw mentioned: Most of us are 18+ and most of us are not first time linux users. So I don't see any reasons, not to upgrade in init 5. It is not an official recommendation, but who cares :) We have an old saying in Germany: "Wer den Schaden hat, braucht für den Spott nicht zu sorgen".
Init 3 is the safe way to do a dist-upgrade. When you upgrade in init 5, it will in rare cicumstances break your system. The solution is easy: If you break your system, you have to repair it yourself. This affects only yourself. Our systems will stay alive without hassle.
I did once DU in init 5 by carelessness and my system break :shock:
Think about Murphy's Law :wink: