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Siduction Forum => Free Speech / Freie Rede => Free Speech (EN) => Topic started by: clubex on 2014/10/14, 11:50:57

Title: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: clubex on 2014/10/14, 11:50:57
http://www.linuxtoday.com/upload/debian-leader-says-users-can-continue-with-sysvinit-141012174011.html

To me this hints there is more going on behind the scenes at Debian than we are privy to.

I posted the URL for the Linux Today page instead of going right to the article because the accompanying comment expresses one of my concerns about systemd. ie too much done by a single entity and the consequent lack of cofiguration of the init process plus the continuing dependency of parts of the system (eg Gnome) on systemd.. For me this restricts my freedom to construct the system the way I like it. And I always feel that there is an aura of something hidden, inaccessible and doctrinaire surrounding systemd which I do not like..

Just my view.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: musca on 2014/10/16, 13:46:35
Hello clubex,

i ignored the whole discussion for a year but now i surrender and post a comment.

Modern operating systems, desktops, applications (and webservices) are complex and no single person is able to keep control about everything. Even the most advanced system architects need to trust others. You do trust the gnome developers, you do trust the kernel developers, and you even do trust the GNU compiler guys and the firmware and microcode programmers. You keep trust in 2500 Debian people (devs+maintainers) and you use far more than 1000 packages even in small installs.  How many source packages did you download to review the code? Do you discuss compiler options or build options?  There are so many details that somebody did already decide on. If you would not trust how could you use Debian Gnu/Linux or any derivative distribution?

My point of view is: It is a modern miracle that you, clubex, have the freedom to get engaged with every aspect of open source development and that the result is still useable for me.

I think there is less going on behind the scenes than we imagine. The lengthy discussion about initsystems was decided like thousand other details before and now the debian developers are back to work. Did you notice the enormous amount of packages that recently comes in with every dist-upgrade? The developers are in a hurry to get their packages updated before the freeze. I think debian is in good shape and i enjoy being part of it.

greetings
musca
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: piper on 2014/10/16, 14:01:14
musca, very good post, I agree
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: dibl on 2014/10/16, 19:05:27
+1
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/16, 19:33:20
+1

And for those who think they are able (and willing) to do all the distribution things by themself there is a nice and well known distribution:

Arch Linux!  https://www.archlinux.org/static/magazine/2008/newsletter-2008-Jun-02.html#contributed

But wait - eventually not so clever - the arch devs decided a long time ago to go with systemd 8)
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: clubex on 2014/10/18, 00:42:45
Further to my original post:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00001.html
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: UP2L8 on 2014/10/18, 08:08:22
+1

And for those who think they are able (and willing) to do all the distribution things by themself there is a nice and well known distribution:

Arch Linux!  https://www.archlinux.org/static/magazine/2008/newsletter-2008-Jun-02.html#contributed

But wait - eventually not so clever - the arch devs decided a long time ago to go with systemd 8)
There's always Slackware.   8)
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: clubex on 2014/10/18, 15:03:05
If you read the correspondence I quoted you will see that what is being advocated is that there should be a real choice of init system. Note how quickly the original posting was answered by all concerned. It looks to me as if, thankfully, Debian is aware that the freedom of choice is being diminished. There is no hint of removing systemd or sysvinit.

As for the knee jerk reactions:-

UP2LB: If that a genuine suggestion then I thank you for it. But it's a two-fingered suggestion then you have no idea what freedom is about. You don't jump ship when freedom is attacked, you fight to restore it.

Quote from musca on 16 October 2014

Quote
My point of view is: It is a modern miracle that you, clubex, have the freedom to get engaged with every aspect of open source development and that the result is still usable for me.

It is not a miracle it is/was the backbone of open source development from the very beginning. It  has been worked on by people who have desired that freedom and have been consistent in their aims. By the way pointing me out as clubex in your quote can, to an English man, be viewed as preaching and treating me as inferior to you. Not nice.

IMHO and in the opinion of others systemd has it's claws in too much of the system and is intent on absorbing more and more (ie. ntp,cron etc). Even some userspace applications have their libraries as dependencies. eg.why should Gnome have a dependency on which init system is used? Is it the job of the init system to decide what user space application I can use? Of course it isn't.

Soon systemd will have embedded itself so deeply that there will be no alternative init system. So where will my/your freedom to choose which init system to use be then? Sysvinit might seem primitive but at least it didn't intrude on the province of other parts of the system.

I have been dabbling in Linux since the version 0.1 days but now I'm too old to contribute other than with bug reports. The movement for freedom in software developmnt began soon after and IMO the best thing that has ever happen to software development But when I see the freedom so earnestly fought for by countless others over many years swept away for among other such trivial reasons as faster boot times (generally for the convenience of laptop users) then I feel a great sorrow for the open source community.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: UP2L8 on 2014/10/18, 17:51:09
@clubex:  It was a genuine suggestion and it was made because Slackware is referenced as an alternative distro on the boycottsystemd site.

I have no influence on what Debian or any other distro does other than to switch when they do something major that I do not like.  Linux is about freedom of choice; if you don't like something in one distro, go find another.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/18, 20:31:28
I've had the systemd discussions so often in the last year, that i lost the will to argue about - my answer to any of such discussions is: a) take it as it is, b) make your own thing upon your distribution of choice, c) choose a distribution that fit best for your needs. If it is siduction, fine, great - if not - fine, great.

Linux is about choice - partially right - Example: In case of consolekit there are no alternatives than systemd. Consolekit is unmaintained and bitrotten for years. So one can decide: Use dead code without any upstream support or use a active developed project to fulfill the needs of the project - the gnome guys taken the second choice :)

So if one don't like systemd - provide the needed functionality outside of systemd and everything is good. But don't expect other people to do this for you, If they decide that systemd perfectly fit their needs, this is their choice. It isn't the responsibilty of a project that develop a DE to do the plumbing :) - Btw. Gnome was only a prominent example, other DEs will follow, like KDE and others. If one is willing to fight for his freedom: Don't talk about choices and freedom, provide code that make sense.

My 2 ¢
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: UP2L8 on 2014/10/19, 22:07:43
Not everyone is a coder or wants to code, so I do not agree with your statement.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/20, 01:32:49
ok - but imagine: you live in a village and have only two restaurants: a italian and a french one. No go in and order sushi - i don't think you will get it there.

Maybe one time the italian restaurant is sold to a japanese guy - lucky one, you get your sushi - but to be true - if the pizza and pasta remains - i don't wanna test them.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: musca on 2014/10/21, 01:30:06
Hello clubex,
Sorry, no personal offence was intended by me. Of course I don't think any individuals would be inferior, and i appreciate you as an active member of our forum. Let me apologize my weird wording as i'm not a native english speaker. I wanted to stress that so many individuals are involved in the process and that they -how ever- have to manage to find a compromise and that this also applied to you and me.

sincerely
musca
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: clubex on 2014/10/21, 11:15:51
Thanks musca. Understood.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: devil on 2014/10/21, 20:00:26
http://news.siduction.org/2014/10/debian-will-not-likely-be-forked/


my 2 cents


greetz
devil
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: dibl on 2014/10/21, 20:57:21
http://news.siduction.org/2014/10/debian-will-not-likely-be-forked/ (http://news.siduction.org/2014/10/debian-will-not-likely-be-forked/)


my 2 cents



Yes, those are excellent points -- I agree.


I recently bought a new car -- a 2015 model, my first new car in 10 years.  It is incredibly complex, even compared to the last one I had which was a 2004 model.  I remember my 1975 Dodge D100 pickup truck fondly -- only three forward gears, a slant 6 engine, manual steering, with no accessories of any kind.  I guess I could make a criticism of my new 2015 car and say "It is unnecessarily complex, as compared to my 1975 D100."  After all, my 1975 D100 did take me from point "A" to point "B" very reliably.  But I would not want it today -- there were no safety features like airbags, no power disc brakes, none of the helpful accessories that my new car has.  This is the way I think about this systemd controversy.  In the year 2014, why would you hold up Unix as the gold standard of computer system initialization?   :o
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/21, 21:55:18
hmm - linux is not unix - and never was. 8)

True unix is BSD or Solaris - but afaik they use not sysvinit.

BSD: bsd-init (https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/linux-users/startup.html)
Solaris: SMF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Management_Facility)
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: ralul on 2014/10/21, 23:31:14
Apropos Bsd: Another init of unix is launchd, here:
http://www.puredarwin.org/developers/booting/launchd
which was the model LPoettering oriented on, for example:
https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/launchctl.1.html
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: UP2L8 on 2014/10/22, 01:36:55
@devil: You definitely know more than I since you work on putting together a distro.  However, I still dislike systemd and it has nothing to do with the fact that it is new.  One of the things that was touched on in your post is the Unix philosophy of doing one thing and doing it well, which is one of the things I dislike about systemd.

@dibl:  The more technology added to a vehicle, the more things that can go wrong with them and usually are costly to repair.  You can have air bags.  I would prefer to be able to opt not to have them.  They can be lifesavers in situations, but they also cause injuries due to the force of deployment.

Where I live, we are required to get an annual safety inspection for our vehicles.  If you don't get one, you can be ticketed.  So, even though I don't care for an air bag, if mine doesn't work or has previously deployed without getting replaced ($$$), my vehicle will fail the safety inspection.  Therefore, all of the newer safety features will probably have to be in working order as well or your vehicle will not pass the safety inspection.

@melmarker:  True, but BSD also does not use something as invasive as systemd AFAIK.  Invasive meaning the number of things that systemd controls.

@ralul:  I know that Apple uses a base BSD to build OS X, but both links you provided mention only OS X, not BSD
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/22, 02:46:57
To be true - i don't care about init-systems a lot. Arch with the bsd-style init was fine for me, i hated sysvinit from the beginning of my linux "carreer" whole hearted, but i was the last jumped on the systemd wagon - so what. Upstart - no comment. (I'm not willing to argue about the debian crap to introduce so called "dependencies", had a few times to fix this, that was not funny) You can read the irc protocls or the forum about that - and i was the last for a reason. I wanted systemd to be more mature before using it in a distribution. So the switch end of 2013 was perfectly fine for me.

And trust me, we (siduction) will not go back to sysvinit, never ever. Sorry guys, it will be harder to run systems without systemd and we don't care a bit. We do not force this, but we will not do anything that keep sysvinit alive. The fine thing about distributions is: there are a lot of it - and any living distribution has its niche and its reason. And if none of the 300 more or less living distributions fit your needs - create a own. Thats what we do with our distribution: We build, what fit our needs - and i think we do a good job so far.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: ralul on 2014/10/22, 03:10:32
@ralul:  I know that Apple uses a base BSD to build OS X, but both links you provided mention only OS X, not BSD
OS X is what happens to opensource without GPL. I haven't looked into it, but I guess OS X is essentualy Bsd with a qtwebkit powered Safari browser on top. But we don't forget Apple did quiet a good job with cups for us all a long time. And xorg patches ...

If at some point Bsd wants to have systemd, will they just take over launchd? As you can see from that launchctl man page I linked, systemd grown beyond its model.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: UP2L8 on 2014/10/22, 04:38:20
...Sorry guys, it will be harder to run systems without systemd and we don't care a bit. We do not force this, ...
01) Why would you want something that is so critical that Linux will not run without it?

02) If a system will not run without systemd, isn't that kind of forcing it on users?  So users choice will be:  embrace systemd or don't use Linux?  Again, I'm not a Linux guru.  I've only used Linux full time for about two years.  However, that doesn't seem like choice to me.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: ralul on 2014/10/22, 09:56:30
...Sorry guys, it will be harder to run systems without systemd and we don't care a bit. We do not force this, ...
01) Why would you want something that is so critical that Linux will not run without it?

02) If a system will not run without systemd, isn't that kind of forcing it on users?  So users choice will be:  embrace systemd or don't use Linux?  Again, I'm not a Linux guru.  I've only used Linux full time for about two years.  However, that doesn't seem like choice to me.
@U2L8, melmarker answerd your question already:
1. He does not want not, but he does not want to care about, to take his time in an extra effort.
2. You can try instead and take your time, or you can change your distribution.

I think, what systemd achieves is somehow what LSB tried in vein over two decades: To get to common best practices with all the trivias not meaningful.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: devil on 2014/10/23, 13:30:11
http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/2014102101-avoiding-systemd.html


greetz
devil
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: clubex on 2014/10/24, 17:58:44
Devil: My reaction is not a social phenomenon. It can't be brushed of as "nobody likes change".Saying that is either missing the point or being disingenuous. Choice is important but it isn't the main issue in this discussion. There are more fundamental issues at stake which can only be resolved by having choices.I'm all for choice in almost everything (my wife is an exception! :-)) and that includes init systems.

While I'm not so eloquent as you I'll try to put over what I think is the problem with systemd as it is at present.

First off let me say that I quite like systemd as an init system. The problem is it patently isn't remaining an init system! I was reasonable happy with systemd up until about versions 205 or 208 but it's forcing itself as a dependency of so many other parts of the operating system including user applications.

Note how much software (including applications) and their dependencies depend on libsystemd0:
Code: [Select]
apt-cache showpkg libsystemd0
Also note how much software depends on dbus which itself is dependant on systemd
Code: [Select]
apt-cache showpkg dbus

Why is so much of the GNULinux operating system becoming dependant on an init system? And in turn,  through dbus, tying user applications to a one particular init system? I've read there are indications that even gimp and KDE will have to join GNome in having libsystemd0 as a dependency. None of these are the province of a init system.

It follows that these  dependancies will restrict the take up of open source software (OSS). For example there is no systemd on MS Windows and yet there are probably more users of OSS (eg. LibreOffice) on MS Windows than any other platform including GNULinux. As you can see from the above many essential parts of the operating systems are now dependant on systemd. Will special versions of OSS have to be written for operating systems other than GNULinux? Or will the normal avenues of spreading OSS be simply dropped from every operating system except GNULinux?

This is where, for me, choice comes in. Two aspects stand out:

(a) If something like systemd restricts the use of OSS and becomes counterproductive to it's promulgation then there needs to be the choice of ignoring it and adopting another path. But that path is rapidly becoming closed due to the all pervasiveness of systemd.

(b) Likewise  when we had sysvinit we had the choice of creating and adopting a new init system whenever we wished. This avenue for change was open simply because sysvinit did it's job as a single unit in isolation from the rest of the operating system (this is the whole point of the "doing one job and doing it well" mantra). We had the opportunity, if we so wished, to remove sysvinit and slot in a new init system without affecting the rest of the operating system to any great degree. Without this avenue for change systemd could not have happened. But, due to it's all pervasiveness, systemd is again rapidly closing off this avenue for change.

IMHO because of (a) and (b) systemd is both anti-OSS and leading GNULinux up a blind alley to eventual sterility. The situation can only be remedied by offering a real choice of init system so that adopting one or the other does not break the system and it's applications.

Choice is good, not in and of itself, but because it offers solutions.

   
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/24, 18:35:59
a) short answer: Then sit down and write a valid alternative
b) if no one take care and provide several projects you mentiond with valid alternatives - projects will use systemd if it is the only system that provide the functionality they need.

It's really that easy.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: UP2L8 on 2014/10/25, 00:24:04
@devil:  Thank you for the link.  However, how does one avoid systemd if they want to use a package(s) that rely on libsystemd0?

@clubex:  +1...well said.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/25, 00:45:54
@UP2L8 - no one should avoid systemd - this is also that easy. it is a consistent set of packages/programs which do their job good - a little bit castrated if not with systemd as pid 0

and please - don't talk that much about choice if there are no valid choices
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: piper on 2014/10/25, 13:24:11
Choices will be slackware and gentoo, but, for only about 2 years tops before they change over also.

Bsd, Solaris (Oracle Solaris now) are other choices  I have used before, but, I like linux much better

I am one that don't mind the changes at all
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/25, 16:49:14
and please also note the key point from devils article - bevore systemd and upstart there was really no easy alternative to sysvinit especially in debian - sysvinit was a essential package. So it was not that easy to prevent sysvinit to be PID 1 - in case one was willing to use runit or maybe bash as main init system - things have improved a lot with systemd/upstart since december 2013. Now we have the choice (and the needed package changes to easy change the init systems).
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: devil on 2014/10/26, 01:27:03
https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/eBZuoNB8pa2   8)




greetz
devil
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: vilde on 2014/10/26, 10:26:23
https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/eBZuoNB8pa2 (https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/eBZuoNB8pa2)   8)




greetz
devil
I think this statement from devil will put this discussion onto another level. Everybody has now made his/her (probablay not many "her" here) point. 

To always have to choose is on of today’s everyday hell, to bye toothpaste we have to choose from a huge amount of different tastes, colors, branches or whatever, why?

When I was a child we had one channel on tv, some years later there was two, that was a revolution, now we are zapping the shit out of the remote-control to try to find anything that's worth to see, I promise you that there where a lot more quality minutes on tv back then, with two channels.

A lot of choices is not at all equal with more quality.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: devil on 2014/10/26, 12:19:43
So, what are you saying? Systemd is enough?
If you talk about the quality of the available options, no one with a clear mind will deny that systemd is the superiour choice. It is other things that sane people critizise (the trolls also critizise the quality, do not believe them) and those points can be discussed, not the quality.


greetz
devil
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: vilde on 2014/10/26, 13:16:03
So, what are you saying? Systemd is enough?
If you talk about the quality of the available options, no one with a clear mind will deny that systemd is the superiour choice. It is other things that sane people critizise (the trolls also critizise the quality, do not believe them) and those points can be discussed, not the quality.


greetz
devil
I think this thread has become a thread about the need of choices. And what I say is  that it's not always necessary or even good to have a lot of choices.

I do not have enough knowledge to say anything about quality on systemd or sysvinit.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: clubex on 2014/10/26, 16:59:42
Lets get this straight the basic ideas embodied in the original systemd are fine and in many respects are an definite improvement over sysvinit.

But in case anyone has not yet got it let me try to explain.

The primary problem with systemd as it stands is it's becoming (perhaps is) no longer just an init system. It's growing into a major operating dependency of the GNULinux system. Soon GNULinux will not be able to run without it.

One of the cornerstones of Unix-like systems is that there has never been any part of the operating system, not even the kernel, which depends on the necessary existence of another part. This is what makes Unix-like systems so flexible.

What happens if another, much better, init system is proposed in the future? It will be impossible to introduce it because systemd will have it's tentacles so deep into everything that virtually all the operating system will have to be rewritten.

I remember devil saying, when systemd was introduced into siduction, that it will do until something better comes along (and he quoted a few examples). I'm sorry to say we are almost at the stage when devil's hope will be but a dream. It will never, ever happen. We'll be stuck with systemd for ever. No GNULinux software, even an init system, should control so much of the future developement of the operating system.

This isn't the flexibility which unix-like systems offer; it's a strait jacket.

If systemd is to remain part of GNOLinux (and I think it should) then it should restrict itself to being an init system and cease being a dependency for the rest of the system.

Aside:
Why are most of you so afraid of losing systemd? Lighten up! I can understand the distribution devs wanting it because it makes life a darn sight easier for them. But the ordinary user who  hardly cares what an init system does?

And who in the Debian emails I quoted in my original post has expressed a wish to go back to sysvinit? Nobody. Ensuring there are choices is not necessarily a retrograde attitude.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: piper on 2014/10/26, 18:18:25
Never say Never

Black Sabbath

Life in general ...
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/26, 18:24:41
@clubex - i understand and respect your point of view - but your POV leave an open question: What if your assumptions are false?
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: ayla on 2014/10/26, 18:26:14
Wasn't linux allways a kind of experiment and aren't we using sid because we like it this way?

So what?

We will experience a new init system and leave the "one prog, one job" path maybe. If it works well -fine. We will stay with it for a while.
If it does not -someone WILL bring in something better soon.

For me, for now, it works well and therefore I enjoy and have no need to argue.

greets
ayla
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/26, 18:59:47
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy -- a short overview.

Intresting read i think - esp. the worse is better part :) - ok - and now to the "One-Thing-Myth":

Quote
Doug McIlroy, then head of the Bell Labs CSRC (Computing Sciences Research Center), and inventor of the Unix pipe,[4] summarized the Unix philosophy as follows:[5]

    This is the Unix philosophy: Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface.

Hell: We are bound to the opinion of a single individual? Was he god or a human? He has written it in stone? Hey, he created the unix pipe, not unix - interesting are his thoughts about linux later ...
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: devil on 2014/10/26, 20:49:28
Lets get this straight the basic ideas embodied in the original systemd are fine and in many respects are an definite improvement over sysvinit.


What is the original systemd? Lennart Poettering held a talk in Japan in 2012 [1], where he referred to systemd as CoreOS and explaining where the journey is going. So anybody that cares could have known at the time what to expect. A lot of people try to tell the tale of it starting out as just init and then growing tentacles all over. This is not true.
[1] http://www.montanalinux.org/video-systemd-as-core.html


greetz
devil
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: UP2L8 on 2014/10/27, 06:01:17
@ayla:  Who's arguing?  We're just sharing viewpoints and I think it has been done in a very civil manner.

To be honest, I have used systemd.  I played around with Antergos (Arch derivative) a few weeks ago; boot and shutdown times were super quick.  I'm going to assume that was due to systemd.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: ayla on 2014/10/27, 08:02:06
@UP218:
I used "to argue" in a sense of complain, discuss, debate to express my POV, nothing else.
 I had no intention to use it to express "to  quarrel" or something alike or saying someone would do so.
But google told me that it is used in such a sense  typically. So: sorry for my english.

Greets
ayla
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: UP2L8 on 2014/10/27, 18:51:41
No harm done.  Your English is light years ahead of my German, of which I know almost nothing.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: clubex on 2014/10/30, 12:09:53
Just to add to the debate  It seems that SuSE has it's reservations.

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65877-systemd-but-no-journald-in-new-suse-release

devil: As I stated earlier, for me the "original systemd" was up to version 2.5 or maybe 2.8. After that IMO it started to fail to be just an init system.

Today I once again tried apt-cache showpkg libsystemd0 and got the following dependents
Code: [Select]
apt-cache showpkg libsystemd0
Reverse Depends:
  uuid-runtime,libsystemd0
  bsdutils,libsystemd0
  packagekit,libsystemd0
  libmutter0e,libsystemd0
  mate-session-manager,libsystemd0
  libguestfs0,libsystemd0
  knot-libs,libsystemd0
  knot,libsystemd0
  cups-daemon,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-settings-daemon,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-session,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-screensaver,libsystemd0
  apt-cacher-ng,libsystemd0
  acpi-fakekey,libsystemd0
  libsystemd0:i386,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  libsystemd0:i386,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  weston,libsystemd0
  uuid-runtime,libsystemd0
  bsdutils,libsystemd0
  udisks2,libsystemd0
  transmission-daemon,libsystemd0
  tgt,libsystemd0
  systemd-dbg,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  systemd,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  python3-systemd,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  libsystemd-dev,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  syslog-ng-core,libsystemd0
  stunnel4,libsystemd0
  spice-vdagent,libsystemd0
  remctl-server,libsystemd0
  realmd,libsystemd0
  pulseaudio,libsystemd0
  libpulse0,libsystemd0
  libpolkit-gobject-1-0,libsystemd0
  libpolkit-backend-1-0,libsystemd0
  php5-fpm,libsystemd0
  packagekit,libsystemd0
  onak,libsystemd0
  nsca-ng-server,libsystemd0
  network-manager,libsystemd0
  libmutter0e,libsystemd0
  mpd,libsystemd0
  monopd,libsystemd0
  mate-session-manager,libsystemd0
  mate-screensaver,libsystemd0
  light-locker,libsystemd0
  libvirt0,libsystemd0
  libvirt-daemon-system,libsystemd0
  libvirt-daemon,libsystemd0
  libvirt-clients,libsystemd0
  libguestfs0,libsystemd0
  lbcd,libsystemd0
  knot-libs,libsystemd0
  knot,libsystemd0
  iodine,libsystemd0
  inn,libsystemd0
  libghc-libsystemd-journal-dev,libsystemd0
  gvfs-daemons,libsystemd0
  gnome-system-monitor,libsystemd0
  gnome-shell,libsystemd0
  gnome-session-bin,libsystemd0
  gnome-logs,libsystemd0
  gnome-disk-utility,libsystemd0
  libgdm1,libsystemd0
  gdm3,libsystemd0
  fcgiwrap,libsystemd0
  erlang-base-hipe,libsystemd0
  erlang-base,libsystemd0
  dbus-1-dbg,libsystemd0
  dbus,libsystemd0
  cups-daemon,libsystemd0
  colord,libsystemd0
  clamav-daemon,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-settings-daemon,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-session,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-screensaver,libsystemd0
  beanstalkd,libsystemd0
  apt-cacher-ng,libsystemd0
  acpi-fakekey,libsystemd0
  libaccountsservice0,libsystemd0

Try it with dbus which is dependent on systemd. IMO it's even more frightening.

I think that speaks for itself. I've not kept a strict check (I've better things to do like staying alive) but I don't remember cups being dependent on systemd when I last tried. Cups?



Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: devil on 2014/10/30, 14:20:39
Quote
Just to add to the debate  It seems that SuSE has it's reservations.


For a start: This is about SLES, an enterprise OS, they need to think about your customers. Red Hat had no problem to ship systemd completely with RHEL 7 though.


I understand to a point that SUSE uses wicked (homegrown) instead of systemd-networkd. What I do not understand at all is using rsyslog instead of journal.


greetz
devil
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/10/30, 17:16:15
Ok, some clarification about libsystemd0 - for those who can read and think after reading a word with systemd in it:
Code: [Select]
$ LANG=C aptitude show libsystemd0
Package: libsystemd0                     
New: yes
State: installed
Automatically installed: no
Multi-Arch: same
Version: 215-5+b1
Priority: optional
Section: libs
Maintainer: Debian systemd Maintainers <pkg-systemd-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>
Architecture: amd64
Uncompressed Size: 208 k
PreDepends: libc6 (>= 2.14),
            libgcrypt20 (>= 1.6.1),
            liblzma5 (>= 5.1.1alpha+20120614),
            multiarch-support
Breaks: libsystemd0 (!= 215-5+b1)
Replaces: libsystemd0 (< 215-5+b1)
Description: systemd utility library
 The libsystemd0 library provides interfaces to various systemd components.
Homepage: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd

Tags: role::shared-lib
This library provide only well defined interfaces - eventually non-systemd components (replacements for systemd-components) can use this interfaces too - so every package with libsystemd0 as dependency is prepared for upcoming drop-in replacements. Really cool imho.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: devil on 2014/10/31, 19:54:59
Views of a professional sysadmin on systemd:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-97qqUHwzGM


greetz
devil
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: clubex on 2014/11/03, 13:33:48
These are my last words on systemd here.  I've better things to do in the time I have left. And anyway the systemd controversy will not be settled here.

melmarker: great chunks of the OS will still be dependant on libsystemd0. The "really cool" bit you mention is like saying "From now on you'll live up to your neck in mud but, hey, we'll give you a sponge to keep your face clean".

devil: My doctor is a professional yet he misdiagnosed my complaint.It needed a professional who could see beyond the symptoms to reach the correct diagnosis. Citing the Pope doesn't make it right only that he's the head of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/11/03, 21:32:23
ok, clubex - i'm maybe unkind and not polite, but you should first learn to read and understand. Don't give up, it will be hard. After that you're eventually allowed to complain about things. Before i forget:

1.) Please  try not to be particularly  funny, english isn't my mothers tongue, so i miss eventual the point.
2.) Please, don't write so much utter bullshit - it really hurts and someone might believe that you're right.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: samoht on 2014/11/04, 11:14:17
@melmarker,
I suggest, that you - as "Global Moderator" - should apologize for your inappropriate wording.
Greetings
Tom
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: piper on 2014/11/04, 12:41:07
Quote from: samoht
@melmarker,
I suggest, that you - as "Global Moderator" - should apologize for your inappropriate wording.
Greetings
Tom

Am I missing something ?

Can you show me where the inappropriate wording is and why is it inappropriate wording  ?
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: samoht on 2014/11/04, 14:46:33
Don`t want to start a flamewar: but,
Quote
don't write so much utter bullshit
, imho, is inappropriate.
@clubex has nowhere used such words in his posts.
In German we have a popular saying:
Quote
Getroffene Hunde bellen
Greetings
Tom
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/11/04, 15:04:07
you will not start a flamewar - but if you think that calling bullshit bullshit is inapropriate - i can't help. I tried to clarify the usage of libsystemd0 some posts ago and the reaction was ...

(ok, i don't use the word again) - So what?
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/11/04, 21:18:22
http://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_454 - Nice heads-up for the onging GR by Marco d'Itri
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: devil on 2014/11/04, 22:44:39
...and a interesting talk by one of the debian-systemd-maintainers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvy0e9kbAos


greetz
devil
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: piper on 2014/11/05, 03:19:40
Quote from: samoht
Don`t want to start a flamewar: but, Quotedon't write so much utter bullshit, imho, is inappropriate.
@clubex has nowhere used such words in his posts.
In German we have a popular saying:
QuoteMade dogs barkGreetings
Tom
Quote from: samoht
Don`t want to start a flamewar: but, Quotedon't write so much utter bullshit, imho, is inappropriate.
@clubex has nowhere used such words in his posts.
In German we have a popular saying:
QuoteMade dogs barkGreetings
Tom


In English, and a few other languages,  we also have a popular saying

Shit Happens

To be honest, all I can say is Wow, Really !

wtf is this world coming to
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: tuxic on 2014/11/10, 03:14:15
Sharing some info:

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/66014-systemd-fallout-joey-hess-quits-debian-project (http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/66014-systemd-fallout-joey-hess-quits-debian-project)
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: ralul on 2014/11/10, 21:16:33
Sharing some info:

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/66014-systemd-fallout-joey-hess-quits-debian-project (http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/66014-systemd-fallout-joey-hess-quits-debian-project)
I cannot see how the Debian Technical Comitee has done any harm by just saying the new release should not unconditionally default on systemD when upgrading an existing Debian sysV installation. There may have been other  problems he had with some people we don't know about.

I have heard there is a chance to break any historical Debian record how fast this coming release will possibly be. This the fallout of systemD ?
Title: Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
Post by: melmarker on 2014/11/10, 23:52:37
Imho the CTTE has done harm to debian - esp. one member. One can see this different, but its my opinion. And the harm will get bigger with the ongoing GR - there will be "winners" and "loosers" - because of a dead simple question about a init system - serious?

The situation with systemd is far better than before - i can change the initsystem to what ever i wanted to - no one hinder me with things like sysvinit being an essential package - (an initsystem essential - wtf???) - today i setup a strato vserver (debian stable) with upstart and reiserfs - both not really my wished configuration, but works perfectly fine - my homeserver is stable with strong dependencies to sid - sysvinit. And if openrc evolve i'm thinking about to use it eventually for some machines. Why not, i have the choice. :)