Noob questions regarding Gnome, MATE, and package signing

SuspiciousLizard · 2012/08/17, 21:42:01

Hi,
I'm trying to determine whether siduction is the right distro for me or not. There was no general forum, so I hope it's okay for me to post these questions here.

First, how are "unsupported" desktop environments like Gnome and MATE handled? Are they installable through the siduction repositories, or are they entirely omitted? Are there any technical problems I should know about before I try to use them, like usability or update problems?

I honestly couldn't care less about Gnome 3 anyway, but I included it in my question since it's better-known than MATE. I do heavily favor Gnome 2 (and its continuation with MATE) over KDE/XFCE/LXDE though, and my goal is to use it in a Debian-based rolling distro that doesn't lag too far behind upstream developers.

Second, how does the package signing work? Are signed packages imported directly from Debian Sid and checked against the original signatures, or are they [potentially modified and] resigned by the siduction team for the siduction repositories?

Thanks

devil · 2012/08/17, 21:50:43

Welcome to siduction.

Let me answer your 2nd question first: more than 90% of our packages are from debian sid directly, unchanged. Then there is our kernels, scripts, a few apps that we maintain and package (according to debian rules and policy) by ourselves. Then there is some packages we ship that are not in debian (as of yet) Those are packaged and maintained in our repos. You can look at our setup here.

Concerning Gnome or Mate: You can install whatever is in debian sid. Mate for example is not (yet) We are generaly not very interested in Gnome 2 or 3. But we have no objection, if someone will maintain it in a responsible way.

greetz
devil

SuspiciousLizard · 2012/08/17, 22:27:49

Thanks for the help!

Since MATE isn't in Sid, I'll probably hold off for now. However, I don't yet understand what you mean by "if someone will maintain it in a responsible way." Aside from upstream development and Debian packaging, what kind of maintenance is necessary for a desktop environment to work well in siduction?

For instance, you say that siduction team members are not very interested in Gnome, and nobody on the team actually maintains it. What would actually happen if someone installed Gnome 3 from the repositories? Would it frequently break with updates (since nobody is testing it for breakages), or what? If using Gnome 3 from the repositories would still work without siduction-specific maintenance, would an external repository for MATE (http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download, Debian section) possibly work too, as long as the packages are built against a kernel and libraries with versions <= the ones in siduction?

dibl · 2012/08/17, 23:54:56

Hi -- welcome!

I think the bottom line on gnome (2 or 3) is, you'll be on your own with it, and if a development in Sid makes it break, then there's no one on the siduction team who is going to spend much time trying to repair the situation. It's a small (but elite!) team, and there are no gnome-lovers on it.

If you haven't taken a look at the LXDE desktop, you would not be wasting an hour to play with it. It uses slim, and is lighter and faster than gnome (or KDE). It's a good choice for netbooks and such, IMO.

devil · 2012/08/18, 01:03:11

Quote
However, I don't yet understand what you mean by "if someone will maintain it in a responsible way." Aside from upstream development and Debian packaging, what kind of maintenance is necessary for a desktop environment to work well in siduction?

If we would ship Gnome or any new DE, we need 2 people to maintain it within our build system, fix brokenness if possible and support it for our users. You cannot just ship a DE and be done with it.

A mate repository would probably work, but we cannot support that. So, as dibl says, you are on your own.

greetz
devil

SuspiciousLizard · 2012/08/18, 02:25:54

Thanks guys, that helped to clarify the situation for me.

On the subject of LXDE, it seems PCManFM is now able to use a Trash folder now instead of deleting files entirely...that's a good sign for me. I looked into it once before LXDE ever took hold as a full-fledged desktop environment, and that was one of my sticking points. I know that might sound trivial, and I'll admit I've dismissed LXDE very quickly without giving it a fair shot, but I've mostly avoided it because its design goals appear to conflict with my preferences:

I ultimately prioritize a desktop environment's simplicity of use over the simplicity of the underlying software: Whereas KDE is too "busy" for me, LXDE places such a strong emphasis on performance and memory consumption that it may be dropping features I actually enjoy to achieve it. Since I'm more on the mobile workstation side of things than the netbook side, minimizing system requirements isn't as much of a priority. Gnome 2 was bloated under the hood (and Nautilus has always been wayyyyyy too slow), but the interface at least struck a balance I was comfortable with. It didn't distract me with hundreds of options for tweaking, but it included enough graphical configuration front-ends ("Control Panel" kind of stuff) and panel applets (e.g. weather, investment) that I had everything I needed close at hand and rarely felt restricted.

I tried XFCE a couple times, and it always seemed lacking on this front. I felt it was missing some of the "Control Panel"-esque functionality I was looking for, and there were little things that bothered me: For instance, I never got the hang of editing the right-click menu to let me use the desktop like any other folder, and Orage was a lot less flexible about the kind of information it could display than I would like (I like seeing the day of the week, date, and time at a glance). Thunar is much faster than Nautilus, but the last time I tried it I was treated to a choice between obnoxiously huge navigational icons in the toolbar, or none at all. These are nitpicky issues, but it just didn't feel like home to me. (In comparison, Gnome 3 and Unity are total nightmares: I'm task/data-oriented rather than application-oriented, and I rely on the desktop as a "messy working area" before moving files to the well-organized parts of my filesystem. That's aside from routinely using multiple instances of the same application...)

LXDE appears to be similar to XFCE in this manner, and it has an even stronger emphasis on a small footprint, which might not be the best for me: My sweet spot for applications is more in the gedit ballpark than the Leafpad ballpark, so to speak. I could replace a bunch of basic applications with Gnome/Mate equivalents, but loading the resulting heavy-weight Gnome/Mate libraries into memory would defeat the purpose of having a lightweight desktop altogether. I'd also have a bunch of programs with duplicate functionality that didn't fit with the desktop, and I imagine the "Control Panel" would still be light on tools.

TL;DR and conclusion:
All that said, I'm going to have to compromise somewhere, and I'd rather not resign myself just yet to waiting months and months for software updates. I think I might take your advice to heart and give LXDE a shot anyway, dibl. Maybe it will surprise me! Even if it doesn't, I could try installing Mate alongside it and hope for the best. If Mate breaks on update, maybe I'll get lucky and be able to boot into LXDE instead of a recovery shell.

michaaa62 · 2012/08/18, 07:41:11

Well.
I am running Gnome desktop on my siduction computers only. And it runs very smooth. Taste by side, it is a fully fledged desktop, with it own quirks and workflow.
It is rock-solid in debian sid as well. As for every big project you have to be aware of the upgrade process.
Read the output of apt-get, understand the implications and sometimes just hold back the dist-upgrade to wait for more packages to arive in sid, but this is the case for all the desktop environments.
This are the numbers for the desktop, having Opera, Icedove, Deluge, Dropbox, Guake applications loaded:

Code Select

micha@siductionbox:~$ inxi -v3
System:    Host: siductionbox Kernel: 3.5-2.towo-siduction-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit, gcc: 4.7.1) 
           Desktop: Gnome Distro: siduction 11.1 One Step Beyond - kde - (201112302141)
Machine:   Mobo: MEDIONPC model: MS-7621 version: 1.2 Bios: American Megatrends version: A7621MLN.108 date: 04/27/2010
CPU:       Dual core Pentium CPU T4400 (-MCP-) cache: 1024 KB flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 ssse3) bmips: 8799.64 
           Clock Speeds: 1: 1200.00 MHz 2: 1200.00 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA C79 [GeForce 9100M G] bus-ID: 03:00.0 
           X.Org: 1.12.3 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: fbdev,vesa) Resolution: 1920x1080@60.0hz 
           GLX Renderer: Gallium 0.4 on NVAC GLX Version: 2.1 Mesa 8.0.4 Direct Rendering: Yes
Network:   Card-1: Realtek RTL8191SEvB Wireless LAN Controller driver: rtl8192se port: e800 bus-ID: 08:00.0
           IF: wlan0 state: down mac: 00:25:d3:4f:73:2b
           Card-2: Realtek RTL8111/8168B PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet controller 
           driver: r8169 ver: 2.3LK-NAPI port: d800 bus-ID: 04:00.0
           IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: 40:61:86:28:b4:d8
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 2000.9GB (60.3% used) 1: model: ST31000520AS 
           2: model: Multi 3: model: Hard_Drive_XS 
Info:      Processes: 167 Uptime: 1 day Memory: 887.4/3707.8MB Runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 4.7.1 Client: Shell inxi: 1.8.13

convbsd · 2012/08/27, 00:01:33

Hello gnomers,

I will try to bring gnome as a new DE to siduction.
As devil saed two maintainers are needed for it so .... I search an team mate.
Eagers can contact me via pm.

Thank you

michaaa62 · 2012/08/30, 12:26:22

What would be involved to help you? I have no coding skills, just have some small experience with building siduction with pyfll. What does it take to achieve a release. Which files/applications should be built for an release.

devil · 2012/08/30, 13:01:03

Quote
What does it take to achieve a release.

Constant building and testing is one of the jobs for a maintainer. Learning how to customize the DE to your/the teams liking is another.
Of course constantly working with Gnome as your main DE is another requirement. Follow Gnome developement by reading the respective mailing- and bug-lists is also not a bad idea. Hang around on IRC is helpful for quick fixes, if needed.

greetz
devil

michaaa62 · 2012/08/31, 11:18:16

Lets see, if there are more than a handful interested at all.
http://forum.siduction.org/index.php?topic=2731

otto · 2012/10/29, 21:15:06

I liked best the mate on siduction. But I have heard It's not in the debian sid yet. Absolutely not gnome 3. Very bloated What I have seen before.This is my humble opinion.
Cheers.

spacepenguin · 2012/10/30, 20:21:37

@SuspiciousLizard: Lxde is not so "basic" as it seems on first glance. You can use e.g. screenlets to have a weather widget, an analog clock, notes, trash etc. on your desktop, you can e.g. use izulu to have a weather and/or day & night wallpaper, you can easily use PNGs to give a "cozy" look to the panel, you can use the desktop as folder, you can easily add more panels, no need to use leafpad btw

, and configuration is relatively comfortable.

BTW: Did you take a look at Razor-Qt?

otto · 2012/10/31, 01:33:43

Quote from: "spacepenguin"@SuspiciousLizard: Lxde is not so "basic" as it seems on first glance. You can use e.g. screenlets to have a weather widget, an analog clock, notes, trash etc. on your desktop, you can e.g. use izulu to have a weather and/or day & night wallpaper, you can easily use PNGs to give a "cozy" look to the panel, you can use the desktop as folder, you can easily add more panels, no need to use leafpad btw , and configuration is relatively comfortable.

BTW: Did you take a look at Razor-Qt?

Thanks.I already tasted.