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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart  (Read 3640 times)

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Offline devil

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #1 on: 2014/02/10, 16:56:51 »
Do not hold your breath over this, that is not final. The vote is open until 'Feb. 15, and even though it looks like Systemd wins, anyone can still change their vote. And given how heated the process was, I do not believe anything until the vote is closed and the outcome officialy announced. Besides that there can (and very likely will be) a GR on this matter, be it now or in 1 year.


greetz
devil

Offline timc

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #2 on: 2014/02/10, 19:49:27 »
It is my understanding from reading the bug of the tech committee process that any decision they might make will still not be binding on Debian as a community. They are only voting on what to recommend to the entire community. Maybe I am putting too fine of an interpretation on it, but that is the way I read it.

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708

Note that this discussion spans months of real time, i.e., it is long.

Tim
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Offline devil

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #3 on: 2014/02/10, 22:59:50 »
If the vote ends with systemd as winner, systemd will be in Jessie, unless stopped by a GR, which would need a simple majority to overthrow the vote of the TC.


greetz
devil

Offline ralul

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #4 on: 2014/02/11, 00:26:19 »
Was there any vote from a Canonical sponsored member of the TC that was in favor of systemd?

In the beginning of this "bug" was a discussion about this matter: These guys assured not to vote just in favor of Canonical but Debian as a whole !

? But what happened was just what everyone thought would happen :(
This is the perfect example about the danger to have a big sponsor :(
experiencing siduction runs better than my gentoo makes me know I know nothing

Offline devil

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #5 on: 2014/02/11, 01:25:58 »
No, none of the 3 (2 current and 1 former Canonical employee) voted for systemd. 2 voted for upstart, one for further discussion (iirc) And yes, they should have said: we can help with technicakl issues in the discussion but we will abstain from voting. then 3 others would have voted instead.


greetz
devil

Offline absolut

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #6 on: 2014/02/11, 17:31:10 »
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Debian-Wahl-zum-Standard-Init-System-fuehrt-zu-Zank-2110695.html

and here we have the news update (in German), with the development towards GR becoming more likely. interestingly, siduction is mentioned in the last paragraph.

Offline timc

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #7 on: 2014/02/11, 18:05:45 »
Google Translate doesn't help, much.  ???

Tim
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Offline ralul

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #8 on: 2014/02/11, 18:09:22 »
Timc, heise said
"falls Upstart das Rennen machen sollte; unter anderem die Siduction-Macher hatten bereits zum Jahresanfang angekündigt, bei ihrem Debian-Ableger voll auf Systemd setzen zu wollen, selbst wenn sich das Debian-Projekt für ein anderes Standard-Init-System entscheiden sollte."

Short translation:
Even if Upstart would be choosen, there will be Debian derivatives with systemd: Siduction has announced exactly this
« Last Edit: 2014/02/11, 19:36:03 by ralul »
experiencing siduction runs better than my gentoo makes me know I know nothing

Offline dibl

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #9 on: 2014/02/11, 21:05:45 »
Quote
Sogar der Ruf nach einer Debian-Abspaltung, die nicht auf Systemd setzt, wurde laut.

"There was even a loud call for a (sysvinit) Debian fork".

Wow -- calling for a fork seems silly to me.  A little improvement on the existing systemd wiki would be sufficient to let every Debian user set his system init as he or she chooses.  This could be just another choice, like whether you want pulseaudio or not, and what is the default browser.
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Offline ayla

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #10 on: 2014/02/11, 22:54:45 »
Hi,

I followed the discussion from time to time -as far (what is not so really far :) ) as I could of course-, but what now, in the heat after the vote, impressed me most is this letter from Russ Allbery:

I think it's worth to read and think over.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00390.html

greets
ayla
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Offline timc

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #11 on: 2014/02/11, 23:39:23 »
Yes, ayla, that is a well-balanced and thoughtful piece. Thank you.

Tim
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Offline dibl

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #12 on: 2014/02/11, 23:44:14 »
Good article, Ayla -- Vielen Dank!
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Offline ralul

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #13 on: 2014/02/12, 01:33:41 »
Ok, I take it back (dangerous sponsor) after reading Russ Allbery:
Quote
I favor systemd as the choice for Debian, so obviously I think it has
other features that are more compelling than those, or disagree with some
of those design goals.  Making those sorts of value judgements is what
we're here to do.  But I think it should be obvious that there is no need
to postulate some sort of Canonical influence or bias in order to see why
others believe there is a strong case to be made for upstart.  Where you
see people who work for or have worked for Canonical, I see people *who
are familiar with upstart*, who know its advantages and disadvantages
well, and who have a very good feeling for how much effort is required to
work around its quirks.  Due to that familiarity, they may understate some
of the disadvantages, since they're used to working around them, or
understate some systemd features, because they're not familiar with them.
But this is not bias; this is well within the judgement calls that we all
have to make every day as technical experts.  There is no such thing as a
completely impartial review of technology, and you wouldn't want someone
who was completely impartial making technological decisions since it would
indicate a disturbing lack of familiarity with the problem area.

In short, you can certainly disagree with the relative weights of the
various features or drawbacks of any of the init systems.  But I think at
the point at which one goes beyond "I disagree" to "and therefore you must
be biased," one has lost the plot.  This is a hard decision with a lot of
subjective judgement, and reasonable people can arrive at opposite
conclusions.
Danke Ayla!
experiencing siduction runs better than my gentoo makes me know I know nothing

Offline devil

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Re: Debian technical committee votes for systemd over Upstart
« Reply #14 on: 2014/02/12, 08:30:42 »
For readers that prefer german: I wrote an article pulling together what happened in the past few days on our most beloved debian thread:

http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/20763/technischer-ausschuss-waehlt-systemd-zu-debians-neuem-init-system.html


greetz
devil