Benefits of siduction from DE forum -- About Stability

[ghstryder]

Well, there you have it - or not.

I upgrade frequently, and still find that the most powerful tool in the box is simply reading - with a dose of patience tossed in.

The devs suggest not waiting for months. I would propose that if someone wants support that it makes sense to follow the advice given by the devs. It is the owners system, and they are free to do as they choose, but that owner is straying into the non-supported or experimental realm at that point, IMO.

[melmarker]

There is only one major problem with not updating for month - major transitions like perl. That can be a real pita - and i tested it by myselt, have forgotten some machines for a year or so - depending on how one would define fun, it was a lot of fun

[sunrat]

Most issues will either solve them selves or be solved by debian or siduction maintainers, so statisticly (Wrong spelled, spell-check still don't work for me on this forum)

statistically - courtesy sunrat spellcheck service. Spellcheck doesn't work here either, it flags misspelled words but doesn't suggest alternatives.
I haven't had much trouble with longer periods between dist-upgrade, but almost never have left it over a month. Usually weekly or more.

[vilde]

If it generally wouldn't work with long times between dist-upgrades it would not be working to only have one or two releases every year. A new installation today, from latest siduction release and a d-u after that will be equivalent with a 5 month gap between two dist-upgrades. If that wouldn't work the dist would not be able to new users most of the time.

My amateur thoughts about this is that it's not the time from latest d-u that determine if it shall work or not, it's the status in the repos in sid and siduction just the moment you do your d-u that is the critical  thing.

And if it is that the time the repos are in a good status (d-u will work) are much longer than the time the repos are not that good (d-u will not work that well) it will be that as more often you do a d-u the more often you will hit a bad time for doing d-u.

I understand that it could be a problem doing d-u after a long time it will be harder to find solutions, it's not so easy to get through several month of "Upgrade Warnings" in the forum.

By writing this I don't want to recommend anyone to wait months between dist-upgrades I'm just thinking loud.

[devil]

As a rule of heart we can state: more often is better, things tend to get more complicated over time. So if you want to d-u every week, every day or 3 times per day (like me), feel free to do so. Just read what apt wants to do before hitting the button. In case you do not like what you see (removal of packages you want to keep), wait it out, there is a mirror sync every 6 hours in debian.
Pure 32- (if still existent) or 64-bit installs will see those removals or packages being not installable less often than multiarch systems. These more often suffer from situations where a package is available for one arch but not for the other. Those situations are mostly resolved in a day ot two. Common sense really solves most problems with d-u.


greetz
devil

[michaa7]

...Often seen here is the advice to

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apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade -dy

which  will only download all upgradeable stuff but not install it. ...

I never saw it with the -y option. It won't harm together with the -d option. But it sure as hell would harm without it as it is the equivalent to blindly klick the yes bottom.

Which benefit does the -y option generate to the user? It starts the download without permitting the user a glance on what's going on. This makes it a bit contradictory to the general rule.

I would suggest to omit the -y option and not suggest it anymore. 

[piper]

Quote from: der_bud on May 31, 2014, 07:35:50 PM...Often seen here is the advice to Code: [Select]apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade -dy
which  will only download all upgradeable stuff but not install it. ...
I never saw it with the -y option. It won't harm together with the -d option. But it sure as hell would harm without it as it is the equivalent to blindly klick the yes bottom.

Which benefit does the -y option generate to the user? It starts the download without permitting the user a glance on what's going on. This makes it a bit contradictory to the general rule.

I would suggest to omit the -y option and not suggest it anymore. 

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apt-get clean

would wipe it

root@x1:/home/piper# apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade -dy

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Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree     
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  module-assistant python3-pkg-resources
The following packages will be upgraded:
  binutils cups cups-browsed cups-bsd cups-client cups-common
  cups-core-drivers cups-daemon cups-filters cups-filters-core-drivers
  cups-ppdc cups-server-common glances iproute iproute2 libcups2 libcupscgi1
  libcupsfilters1 libcupsimage2 libcupsmime1 libcupsppdc1 libexpat1
  libexpat1:i386 libffi-dev libffi6 libffi6:i386 libfontembed1
  libgssapi-krb5-2 libk5crypto3 libkrb5-3 libkrb5support0 libpython3-stdlib
  libsigsegv2 libva-glx1 libva-x11-1 libva1 python-gdbm python-paramiko
  python3 python3-minimal virtualbox virtualbox-dkms
  virtualbox-guest-additions-iso virtualbox-qt virtualbox-source
45 upgraded, 2 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
2 not fully installed or removed.
Need to get 75.6 MB of archives.
Fetched 75.6 MB in 2min 34s (86.4 kB/s)                                     
Download complete and in download only mode

apt-get clean wipes it and you can start over

[michaa7]

I don't understand what you're talking about.

[dibl]

-d says "Download only, don't install"
-y says "Just do it -- don't ask me about it"


So it is method to get all the updated packages downloaded without installing anything and without second keyboard input to confirm the command.  I can imagine if you had to come down from the mountain with your netbook, and pay $20 per hour for a wifi connection, then this might be a good way to get your updates.  Personally, I don't need to do that.  You would NOT want to forget to read your messages before you do the real d-u.   ;-)

[piper]

I don't understand what you're talking about.

Using 

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-d -y 

together like

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apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade -d -y

will not "install" anything, it will still put you in

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Download complete and in download only mode

So lets say you did a

"apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade -d -y"

and it put you in the "download" mode and you were busy for a week
and you didn't have  time to do a du, and now you do, you could do

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apt-get clean

Which will clear

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/var/cache/apt/archives

Now you can do a again

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"apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade -d -y"

Not sure if this makes sense to anyone, but I usually du 2-3 times a day, sometimes, I have to skip a day due to working to much and I practice the above.

I use "clean" to avoid any conflicts in versions of the app between du's, you shouldn't have to use clean, but I do, I have seen things before to make me practice this way.

A week without a du and "cups" could have upgrading twice since.

people with bandwith problems, not a good idea

YMMV

[michaa7]

My english may not be the best, but the confusion my posting seems to create lets me assume that is is even worse than I think. *My* confusion came from the context in which my posting was cited.

I was perfectly aware of the meaning of -d and -y. I am using the -d option and avoid activly the -y option *since years*.

I only wanted to emphasize that telling people to open their eyes during d-u and then suggesting the -y option might not be wise, even when done in slighly different contexts.

Does this make clear what I suggested?

--------------------------------------------

Now, citing my above critics above your suggestion ("apt-get clear") was what I didn't understand.

First it seems completly unrelated to what I said (at least to what I *wanted* to say) and second, now with your additional explaination your suggestion seems to solve a problem that does *not exist* if I understand correctly what you suggested:

There is no *need* to clear whatever. You may "a-g u && a-g d-u -d -y" as often as you wish with as many days in between as you like (if you don't exceed it too far, which would be an other problem)  eventually the really completed d-u will work like it would work without all the intermediate download-only d-u_s with exacly the same outcome.

In other words: Your system today it up to date. You make a "a-g u && a-g d-u -d -y" on each of the next three days without installing the downloaded pakages. The fourth day you again make a "a-g u && a-g d-u -d -y", but then, after reading und parsing the output, you install the packages. It will behave as if you omitted the three previous downloads. It does not get installed what you have in your apt cache but but what the *latest* d-u calculates on base of the *installed* and currently available packages.

That's how I do it since years (omitting the -y option ;-) )

Was I misreading your suggestion?

----------------------------------------

Unrelated to the above but a general suggestion to d-u. The result *is* related to (not) using the -y option, though:

What I really, exactly use for d-u is:

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apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade --ignore-hold -d

I even use it if nothing is activly marked "hold" because I issue it using the .bash_history or the tab completition. This way I never ever may forgett about held packages. It is my *default*. I download held packages.

Each "a-g u && a-g d-u  --ignore-hold -d" shows me the sid status for my system. (Together with following the forum's update warning section) I am aware of the problems *all the time*, allways inclusive possibly held packages. It is my laziness which prevents me from d-u_ing with install daily.

And when I install, I am aware whether or not I should keep held packages by deleting "--ignore-hold" in the command. If there is nothing held it does not hurt, I don't delete it.

So if I'd suggest a d-u strategy I'd suggested mine, of course, because you *always* get a complete picture and all info you need without any additional ado.

This is the *opposite* of the -y option.

[piper]

Your not making yourself clear

You talking about the -y option by itself, or the -d -y together ?

If your talking -y by itself, then no, it is not recommended, unless you are testing on a non-productive box and know what your doing and still you can run into trouble (my first time building linuxfromscratch gives me goosebumps  ).

In other words: Your system today it up to date. You make a "a-g u && a-g d-u -d -y" on each of the next three days without
installing the downloaded pakages. The fourth day you again make a "a-g u
&& a-g d-u -d -y", but then, after reading und parsing the
output, you install the packages. It will behave as if you omitted the
three previous downloads. It does not get installed what you have in
your apt cache but but what the *latest* d-u calculates on base of the
*installed* and currently available packages.

This has not always been the case, I learned the hard way, why I apt-get clean. Granted, over a decade in sid and a half dozen times (more or less) it screwed me, not really screwed, but updating to the upgraded version after another du seconds after the first completed, so to avoid it I do it my way, it only takes milliseconds of time.

EDIT: somehow I missed this

It won't harm together with the -d option. But it sure as hell would harm without it as it is the equivalent to blindly klick the yes bottom.

I will still continue with apt-get clean, that way, I know for sure, what is going on at all times, I don't trust apt/aptitude 100%, (aptitude even worse in sid only, stable is fine) been burned before by both, and I won't let it happen again. 

[michaa7]

Your not making yourself clear

You talking about the -y option by itself, or the -d -y together ?

I think you got it in the meantime (considering your *edit*). But to be clear, the -y option is evil in general and especially *without* the -d option. Together with the -d option it does not harm (as in "potentially breaking your system"), but I still would not recommend/suggest it due to its effect of hiding usefull information AND due to the related bad educational effect to the user (compared with my command).

the *latest* d-u calculates on base of the
*installed* and currently available packages.

This has not always been the case, ...

I never ever encountered your problem. The only similar occurrence happened with broken/incomplete d-u_s where the oldone was finished and a newone began (IIRC).

What you are telling here never occured to me. But from your experience I can understand your suggestion although I am still wondering if there was a strange order of commands you issued. And I still wonder how previous "d-u -d_s" could interfere with a new upgrade calculation. This makes no sense at all as it implies the upgrade *calculation* gets saved. Saving this calculation sounds like a stupid, unneccesary and counterproductive idea, even more sensless while making a *d-u -d*. I'd called it a bug (and filled a bug report).

Thanks for helping clearing up my confusion with your explanation about how and why you're doing d-u_s your way.

[UP2L8]

I have a habit of upgrading every day throughout the years, is this bad practice in siduction?

This is very good practice,  especially in sid.

Hmmm...in the forums of another distro for users tracking Sid, the suggestion is just the opposite...do not upgrade on a daily basis.

[dibl]

Except when I went out of town, I have been doing daily upgrades on my 2 main systems for over 3 years.  But, sometimes you see a problem and you choose "n" -- maybe once a month or something like that.  That is why we have the upgrade warnings forum.