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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Be careful with the du  (Read 3709 times)

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Offline GoinEasy9

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Be careful with the du
« on: 2014/09/23, 05:39:00 »
Tonight has removals:
root@siduction64kdefx:/home/goineasy9# apt-get dist-upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  calibre calibre-bin libqt5designer5 libqt5svg5 python-pyqt5 python-pyqt5.qtsvg python-pyqt5.qtwebkit

I'm using KDE on siduction December.

Using the apt solver "apt-get --solver=aspcud dist-upgrade" held back the following:
The following packages have been kept back:
  googleearth-package libqt5core5a libqt5dbus5 libqt5gui5 libqt5network5 libqt5opengl5 libqt5printsupport5
  libqt5qml5 libqt5quick5 libqt5sql5 libqt5test5 libqt5webkit5 libqt5widgets5 libqt5xml5

and allowed me to du.
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Offline belze

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #1 on: 2014/09/23, 07:52:30 »

[...] Using the apt solver "apt-get --solver=aspcud dist-upgrade" [...]
VERY INTERESTING! I didn't know about that and i quickly googled a bit and i found some hints.

Offline piper

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #2 on: 2014/09/23, 14:58:13 »
Quote from: belze
Quote from: GoinEasy9 on Today at 12:39:00 AM
[...] Using the apt solver "apt-get --solver=aspcud dist-upgrade" [...] VERY INTERESTING! I didn't know about that and i quickly googled a bit and i found some hints.
  

More here at the forums :)
Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline GoinEasy9

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #3 on: 2014/09/24, 03:36:33 »
Thanks piper, I needed to read that thread again.  Actually, a "apt upgrade" does seems to do the same thing as "apt-get --solver=aspcud dist-upgrade" with a lot less typing.  I was so busy playing with the apt solver that I totally forgot to try devil's solution.
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Offline musca

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #4 on: 2014/09/24, 14:35:51 »
hello GoinEasy9,
that may be true for simple cases.
Both "apt upgrade"  and  "apt-get upgrade --with-new-pkgs"  will not remove packages. They keep back new packages, that require removal of old packages. Well, that is expected behaviour of the "upgrade" command and not a weakness.

The aspcud algorithm used with "apt-get dist-upgrade" can combine three tactics: keeping, installing new and removing outdated packages (as expected from a dist-upgrade command).

It all depends of the given upgrade problem, and there is no single "best algorithm" as results can change for other problems.

greetings
musca
„Es irrt der Mensch, solang er strebt.“  (Goethe, Faust)

Offline michaa7

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #5 on: 2014/09/24, 14:53:08 »
...Actually, a "apt upgrade" does seems to do the same thing as "apt-get --solver=aspcud dist-upgrade" with a lot less typing. ...

Additionaly to what musca said: It may well be that both commands have the same result, but that's due to *different* reasons. "apt upgrade" doesn't care at all about other packages, "apt-get --solver=aspcud dist-upgrade" does. It's then the *circumstances* which *may* lead to the same result.

We spent years to teach users not to use  "apt-get upgrade". Does this policy change because now we have "apt upgrade"? From reading both manpages, I can't see "apt upgrade" is different from "apt-get upgrade" (yeah, the man page entry for "apt upgrade" is shorter).

Wouldn't it be a good idea to instantly forget about "apt upgrade" and "apt-get upgrade" and to not mention it any longer?
« Last Edit: 2014/09/24, 16:21:25 by michaa7 »
Ok, you can't code, but you still might be able to write a bug report for Debian's sake

Offline vilde

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #6 on: 2014/10/01, 11:11:55 »
It would be interesting to know what the siduction developer have to say about this.

Right now I have a multiarch installation that when doing apt-get dist-upgrade will do this,
Code: [Select]
Följande paket kommer att TAS BORT(remove):
  libqtwebkit4:i386 skype:i386
Följande NYA paket kommer att installeras:
  libblas-common libjpeg62 libjpeg62:i386 libmediaart-1.0-0
Följande paket har hållits tillbaka(hold back):
  lightdm-gtk-greeter pywwetha sidu-disk-center
making me not being able to update mybox without loosing some packages among them skype.

But doing apt upgrade I got this,
Code: [Select]
Följande NYA paket kommer att installeras:
  libblas-common libjpeg62 libjpeg62:i386 libmediaart-1.0-0
Följande paket har hållits tillbaka(hold back):
  libqtwebkit4 lightdm-gtk-greeter pywwetha sidu-disk-center
Some more packages hold back but I'm able to update the computer.

Is this ok to do or shall we stay fixed with the apt-get dist-upgrade still???

Offline devil

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #7 on: 2014/10/01, 11:56:17 »
Please put LANG=C in front of your commands to get EN output, whe do can't read your lang.


greetz
devil

Offline vilde

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #8 on: 2014/10/01, 12:25:54 »
Please put LANG=C in front of your commands to get EN output, whe do can't read your lang.


greetz
devil
Sorry, I can't do that again, it's already upgraded but what I did do was putting in some translated words inside () to help you understand. TAS BORT is "removed", NYA is "new" and "hållits tillbaka" is hold back. I think you will understand the rest from how it looks like.
« Last Edit: 2014/10/01, 13:13:21 by vilde »

Offline michaa7

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #9 on: 2014/10/01, 12:40:59 »
It would be interesting to know what the siduction developer have to say about this.
...
In my understanding the whole point of dist-upgrade is to calculate whether or not new packages fit into the dependency tree over all installed packages (This is why skype is removed). upgrade alone doesn't calculate anything but installs all new packages over the older ones (That's why skype stays). This may work but isn't guaranteed (= calculated) to work. And in the long run it is foredoomed to fail.

As devils said, in future putting LANG=C in front of your commands to get EN output would be a good idea as would be an official approval or, if I am wrong, an official disaffirmation of what I stated (without to much ado about corner cases).

Ok, you can't code, but you still might be able to write a bug report for Debian's sake

Offline piper

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #10 on: 2014/10/01, 12:44:26 »
This is what my du looks like without the microsoft package and with multi-arch

Code: [Select]
The following packages will be upgraded:
  gvfs gvfs-backends gvfs-bin gvfs-daemons gvfs-libs initramfs-tools inxi libapache2-mod-php5 libcwidget3 libicu52
  libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0 libneon27-gnutls libnm-glib-vpn1 libnm-glib4 libnm-util2 libtomcrypt0 libudisks2-0 libwebkitgtk-3.0-0
  libwebkitgtk-3.0-common network-manager php5-cli php5-common php5-mysql siduction-scripts siduction-settings-kde-indiansummer
  siduction-settings-kde-paintitblack siduction-settings-lightdm-gtk-paintitblack tree udisks2 xterm zim
31 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 29.4 MB of archives.
After this operation, 829 kB disk space will be freed.

Quote
It would be interesting to know what the siduction developer have to say about this.

Code: [Select]
piper@x1:~$ apt-cache policy skype
N: Unable to locate package skype

Since skype is a 3rd party app and a microsoft app at that,  and is not part of siduction or debian even, the developer (s) really aren't inclined to say anything, the reason being, without skype, you wouldn't have this problem, you could wait and see if it sorts itself out, or wait for another opinion, or someone who actually uses the package.


Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline dibl

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #11 on: 2014/10/01, 12:57:52 »
I just now ran d-u on my 64-bit multiarch system.  There is an issue with the new phonon-backend-gstreamer-common package, versus the dependency in phonon-gstreamer-common, that required an -f install to complete the d-u.  However I see no problems with the system.



Code: [Select]
root@imerabox:~# apt-cache policy skype
skype:i386:
  Installed: 4.3.0.37-1
  Candidate: 4.3.0.37-1
  Version table:
 *** 4.3.0.37-1 0
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

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Offline vilde

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Re: Be careful with the du
« Reply #12 on: 2014/10/01, 13:11:15 »
It's not my computer, I don't use skype but the person who use the other computer needs skype, so there the choice is skype with siduction or skype with some other dist.

But I'm not really interested in this specific issue, what I want to know is if the old hardcore rule "only use apt-get dist-upgrade" is still valid or has debian, sid, and/or apt changed so that we can or shall use something else, like apt upgrade?