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Offline dibl

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #15 on: 2014/10/21, 20:57:21 »
http://news.siduction.org/2014/10/debian-will-not-likely-be-forked/


my 2 cents



Yes, those are excellent points -- I agree.


I recently bought a new car -- a 2015 model, my first new car in 10 years.  It is incredibly complex, even compared to the last one I had which was a 2004 model.  I remember my 1975 Dodge D100 pickup truck fondly -- only three forward gears, a slant 6 engine, manual steering, with no accessories of any kind.  I guess I could make a criticism of my new 2015 car and say "It is unnecessarily complex, as compared to my 1975 D100."  After all, my 1975 D100 did take me from point "A" to point "B" very reliably.  But I would not want it today -- there were no safety features like airbags, no power disc brakes, none of the helpful accessories that my new car has.  This is the way I think about this systemd controversy.  In the year 2014, why would you hold up Unix as the gold standard of computer system initialization?   :o
Asus ROG STRIX X299-E, Core i7-7740X, Nvidia GTX-1060, dual monitors, SSD 860 EVO, 2@WD1003FZEX in BTRFS

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #16 on: 2014/10/21, 21:55:18 »
hmm - linux is not unix - and never was. 8)

True unix is BSD or Solaris - but afaik they use not sysvinit.

BSD: bsd-init (https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/linux-users/startup.html)
Solaris: SMF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Management_Facility)
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

Offline ralul

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #17 on: 2014/10/21, 23:31:14 »
Apropos Bsd: Another init of unix is launchd, here:
http://www.puredarwin.org/developers/booting/launchd
which was the model LPoettering oriented on, for example:
https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/launchctl.1.html
experiencing siduction runs better than my gentoo makes me know I know nothing

UP2L8

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #18 on: 2014/10/22, 01:36:55 »
@devil: You definitely know more than I since you work on putting together a distro.  However, I still dislike systemd and it has nothing to do with the fact that it is new.  One of the things that was touched on in your post is the Unix philosophy of doing one thing and doing it well, which is one of the things I dislike about systemd.

@dibl:  The more technology added to a vehicle, the more things that can go wrong with them and usually are costly to repair.  You can have air bags.  I would prefer to be able to opt not to have them.  They can be lifesavers in situations, but they also cause injuries due to the force of deployment.

Where I live, we are required to get an annual safety inspection for our vehicles.  If you don't get one, you can be ticketed.  So, even though I don't care for an air bag, if mine doesn't work or has previously deployed without getting replaced ($$$), my vehicle will fail the safety inspection.  Therefore, all of the newer safety features will probably have to be in working order as well or your vehicle will not pass the safety inspection.

@melmarker:  True, but BSD also does not use something as invasive as systemd AFAIK.  Invasive meaning the number of things that systemd controls.

@ralul:  I know that Apple uses a base BSD to build OS X, but both links you provided mention only OS X, not BSD
« Last Edit: 2014/10/22, 01:45:07 by UP2L8 »

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #19 on: 2014/10/22, 02:46:57 »
To be true - i don't care about init-systems a lot. Arch with the bsd-style init was fine for me, i hated sysvinit from the beginning of my linux "carreer" whole hearted, but i was the last jumped on the systemd wagon - so what. Upstart - no comment. (I'm not willing to argue about the debian crap to introduce so called "dependencies", had a few times to fix this, that was not funny) You can read the irc protocls or the forum about that - and i was the last for a reason. I wanted systemd to be more mature before using it in a distribution. So the switch end of 2013 was perfectly fine for me.

And trust me, we (siduction) will not go back to sysvinit, never ever. Sorry guys, it will be harder to run systems without systemd and we don't care a bit. We do not force this, but we will not do anything that keep sysvinit alive. The fine thing about distributions is: there are a lot of it - and any living distribution has its niche and its reason. And if none of the 300 more or less living distributions fit your needs - create a own. Thats what we do with our distribution: We build, what fit our needs - and i think we do a good job so far.
« Last Edit: 2014/10/22, 02:55:54 by melmarker »
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

Offline ralul

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #20 on: 2014/10/22, 03:10:32 »
@ralul:  I know that Apple uses a base BSD to build OS X, but both links you provided mention only OS X, not BSD
OS X is what happens to opensource without GPL. I haven't looked into it, but I guess OS X is essentualy Bsd with a qtwebkit powered Safari browser on top. But we don't forget Apple did quiet a good job with cups for us all a long time. And xorg patches ...

If at some point Bsd wants to have systemd, will they just take over launchd? As you can see from that launchctl man page I linked, systemd grown beyond its model.
« Last Edit: 2014/10/22, 03:24:25 by ralul »
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UP2L8

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #21 on: 2014/10/22, 04:38:20 »
...Sorry guys, it will be harder to run systems without systemd and we don't care a bit. We do not force this, ...
01) Why would you want something that is so critical that Linux will not run without it?

02) If a system will not run without systemd, isn't that kind of forcing it on users?  So users choice will be:  embrace systemd or don't use Linux?  Again, I'm not a Linux guru.  I've only used Linux full time for about two years.  However, that doesn't seem like choice to me.

Offline ralul

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #22 on: 2014/10/22, 09:56:30 »
...Sorry guys, it will be harder to run systems without systemd and we don't care a bit. We do not force this, ...
01) Why would you want something that is so critical that Linux will not run without it?

02) If a system will not run without systemd, isn't that kind of forcing it on users?  So users choice will be:  embrace systemd or don't use Linux?  Again, I'm not a Linux guru.  I've only used Linux full time for about two years.  However, that doesn't seem like choice to me.
@U2L8, melmarker answerd your question already:
1. He does not want not, but he does not want to care about, to take his time in an extra effort.
2. You can try instead and take your time, or you can change your distribution.

I think, what systemd achieves is somehow what LSB tried in vein over two decades: To get to common best practices with all the trivias not meaningful.
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Offline devil

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Offline clubex

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #24 on: 2014/10/24, 17:58:44 »
Devil: My reaction is not a social phenomenon. It can't be brushed of as "nobody likes change".Saying that is either missing the point or being disingenuous. Choice is important but it isn't the main issue in this discussion. There are more fundamental issues at stake which can only be resolved by having choices.I'm all for choice in almost everything (my wife is an exception! :-)) and that includes init systems.

While I'm not so eloquent as you I'll try to put over what I think is the problem with systemd as it is at present.

First off let me say that I quite like systemd as an init system. The problem is it patently isn't remaining an init system! I was reasonable happy with systemd up until about versions 205 or 208 but it's forcing itself as a dependency of so many other parts of the operating system including user applications.

Note how much software (including applications) and their dependencies depend on libsystemd0:
Code: [Select]
apt-cache showpkg libsystemd0
Also note how much software depends on dbus which itself is dependant on systemd
Code: [Select]
apt-cache showpkg dbus

Why is so much of the GNULinux operating system becoming dependant on an init system? And in turn,  through dbus, tying user applications to a one particular init system? I've read there are indications that even gimp and KDE will have to join GNome in having libsystemd0 as a dependency. None of these are the province of a init system.

It follows that these  dependancies will restrict the take up of open source software (OSS). For example there is no systemd on MS Windows and yet there are probably more users of OSS (eg. LibreOffice) on MS Windows than any other platform including GNULinux. As you can see from the above many essential parts of the operating systems are now dependant on systemd. Will special versions of OSS have to be written for operating systems other than GNULinux? Or will the normal avenues of spreading OSS be simply dropped from every operating system except GNULinux?

This is where, for me, choice comes in. Two aspects stand out:

(a) If something like systemd restricts the use of OSS and becomes counterproductive to it's promulgation then there needs to be the choice of ignoring it and adopting another path. But that path is rapidly becoming closed due to the all pervasiveness of systemd.

(b) Likewise  when we had sysvinit we had the choice of creating and adopting a new init system whenever we wished. This avenue for change was open simply because sysvinit did it's job as a single unit in isolation from the rest of the operating system (this is the whole point of the "doing one job and doing it well" mantra). We had the opportunity, if we so wished, to remove sysvinit and slot in a new init system without affecting the rest of the operating system to any great degree. Without this avenue for change systemd could not have happened. But, due to it's all pervasiveness, systemd is again rapidly closing off this avenue for change.

IMHO because of (a) and (b) systemd is both anti-OSS and leading GNULinux up a blind alley to eventual sterility. The situation can only be remedied by offering a real choice of init system so that adopting one or the other does not break the system and it's applications.

Choice is good, not in and of itself, but because it offers solutions.

   

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #25 on: 2014/10/24, 18:35:59 »
a) short answer: Then sit down and write a valid alternative
b) if no one take care and provide several projects you mentiond with valid alternatives - projects will use systemd if it is the only system that provide the functionality they need.

It's really that easy.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

UP2L8

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #26 on: 2014/10/25, 00:24:04 »
@devil:  Thank you for the link.  However, how does one avoid systemd if they want to use a package(s) that rely on libsystemd0?

@clubex:  +1...well said.
« Last Edit: 2014/10/25, 00:32:39 by UP2L8 »

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #27 on: 2014/10/25, 00:45:54 »
@UP2L8 - no one should avoid systemd - this is also that easy. it is a consistent set of packages/programs which do their job good - a little bit castrated if not with systemd as pid 0

and please - don't talk that much about choice if there are no valid choices
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

Offline piper

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #28 on: 2014/10/25, 13:24:11 »
Choices will be slackware and gentoo, but, for only about 2 years tops before they change over also.

Bsd, Solaris (Oracle Solaris now) are other choices  I have used before, but, I like linux much better

I am one that don't mind the changes at all
Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #29 on: 2014/10/25, 16:49:14 »
and please also note the key point from devils article - bevore systemd and upstart there was really no easy alternative to sysvinit especially in debian - sysvinit was a essential package. So it was not that easy to prevent sysvinit to be PID 1 - in case one was willing to use runit or maybe bash as main init system - things have improved a lot with systemd/upstart since december 2013. Now we have the choice (and the needed package changes to easy change the init systems).
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)