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Offline devil

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Offline vilde

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #31 on: 2014/10/26, 10:26:23 »
https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/eBZuoNB8pa2   8)




greetz
devil
I think this statement from devil will put this discussion onto another level. Everybody has now made his/her (probablay not many "her" here) point. 

To always have to choose is on of today’s everyday hell, to bye toothpaste we have to choose from a huge amount of different tastes, colors, branches or whatever, why?

When I was a child we had one channel on tv, some years later there was two, that was a revolution, now we are zapping the shit out of the remote-control to try to find anything that's worth to see, I promise you that there where a lot more quality minutes on tv back then, with two channels.

A lot of choices is not at all equal with more quality.

Offline devil

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #32 on: 2014/10/26, 12:19:43 »
So, what are you saying? Systemd is enough?
If you talk about the quality of the available options, no one with a clear mind will deny that systemd is the superiour choice. It is other things that sane people critizise (the trolls also critizise the quality, do not believe them) and those points can be discussed, not the quality.


greetz
devil

Offline vilde

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #33 on: 2014/10/26, 13:16:03 »
So, what are you saying? Systemd is enough?
If you talk about the quality of the available options, no one with a clear mind will deny that systemd is the superiour choice. It is other things that sane people critizise (the trolls also critizise the quality, do not believe them) and those points can be discussed, not the quality.


greetz
devil
I think this thread has become a thread about the need of choices. And what I say is  that it's not always necessary or even good to have a lot of choices.

I do not have enough knowledge to say anything about quality on systemd or sysvinit.
« Last Edit: 2014/10/26, 13:19:39 by vilde »

Offline clubex

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #34 on: 2014/10/26, 16:59:42 »
Lets get this straight the basic ideas embodied in the original systemd are fine and in many respects are an definite improvement over sysvinit.

But in case anyone has not yet got it let me try to explain.

The primary problem with systemd as it stands is it's becoming (perhaps is) no longer just an init system. It's growing into a major operating dependency of the GNULinux system. Soon GNULinux will not be able to run without it.

One of the cornerstones of Unix-like systems is that there has never been any part of the operating system, not even the kernel, which depends on the necessary existence of another part. This is what makes Unix-like systems so flexible.

What happens if another, much better, init system is proposed in the future? It will be impossible to introduce it because systemd will have it's tentacles so deep into everything that virtually all the operating system will have to be rewritten.

I remember devil saying, when systemd was introduced into siduction, that it will do until something better comes along (and he quoted a few examples). I'm sorry to say we are almost at the stage when devil's hope will be but a dream. It will never, ever happen. We'll be stuck with systemd for ever. No GNULinux software, even an init system, should control so much of the future developement of the operating system.

This isn't the flexibility which unix-like systems offer; it's a strait jacket.

If systemd is to remain part of GNOLinux (and I think it should) then it should restrict itself to being an init system and cease being a dependency for the rest of the system.

Aside:
Why are most of you so afraid of losing systemd? Lighten up! I can understand the distribution devs wanting it because it makes life a darn sight easier for them. But the ordinary user who  hardly cares what an init system does?

And who in the Debian emails I quoted in my original post has expressed a wish to go back to sysvinit? Nobody. Ensuring there are choices is not necessarily a retrograde attitude.
« Last Edit: 2014/10/26, 17:04:13 by clubex »

Offline piper

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #35 on: 2014/10/26, 18:18:25 »
Never say Never

Black Sabbath

Life in general ...
Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #36 on: 2014/10/26, 18:24:41 »
@clubex - i understand and respect your point of view - but your POV leave an open question: What if your assumptions are false?
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

Offline ayla

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #37 on: 2014/10/26, 18:26:14 »
Wasn't linux allways a kind of experiment and aren't we using sid because we like it this way?

So what?

We will experience a new init system and leave the "one prog, one job" path maybe. If it works well -fine. We will stay with it for a while.
If it does not -someone WILL bring in something better soon.

For me, for now, it works well and therefore I enjoy and have no need to argue.

greets
ayla
Kernel: 4.18.11-towo.1-siduction-amd64 x86_64
Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.13.5
(mostly) kept current siduction "18.3.0 Patience"
HP EliteBook 8570p; MoBo: HP model: 17A7 v: KBC Version 42.35
Dual core  i5-3320M (-MT-MCP-)
Intel 3. Gen Graphics (Ivybridge) Driver:i915/ intel
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Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #38 on: 2014/10/26, 18:59:47 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy -- a short overview.

Intresting read i think - esp. the worse is better part :) - ok - and now to the "One-Thing-Myth":

Quote
Doug McIlroy, then head of the Bell Labs CSRC (Computing Sciences Research Center), and inventor of the Unix pipe,[4] summarized the Unix philosophy as follows:[5]

    This is the Unix philosophy: Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface.

Hell: We are bound to the opinion of a single individual? Was he god or a human? He has written it in stone? Hey, he created the unix pipe, not unix - interesting are his thoughts about linux later ...
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

Offline devil

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #39 on: 2014/10/26, 20:49:28 »
Lets get this straight the basic ideas embodied in the original systemd are fine and in many respects are an definite improvement over sysvinit.


What is the original systemd? Lennart Poettering held a talk in Japan in 2012 [1], where he referred to systemd as CoreOS and explaining where the journey is going. So anybody that cares could have known at the time what to expect. A lot of people try to tell the tale of it starting out as just init and then growing tentacles all over. This is not true.
[1] http://www.montanalinux.org/video-systemd-as-core.html


greetz
devil
« Last Edit: 2014/10/27, 08:04:07 by devil »

UP2L8

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #40 on: 2014/10/27, 06:01:17 »
@ayla:  Who's arguing?  We're just sharing viewpoints and I think it has been done in a very civil manner.

To be honest, I have used systemd.  I played around with Antergos (Arch derivative) a few weeks ago; boot and shutdown times were super quick.  I'm going to assume that was due to systemd.

Offline ayla

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #41 on: 2014/10/27, 08:02:06 »
@UP218:
I used "to argue" in a sense of complain, discuss, debate to express my POV, nothing else.
 I had no intention to use it to express "to  quarrel" or something alike or saying someone would do so.
But google told me that it is used in such a sense  typically. So: sorry for my english.

Greets
ayla
Kernel: 4.18.11-towo.1-siduction-amd64 x86_64
Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.13.5
(mostly) kept current siduction "18.3.0 Patience"
HP EliteBook 8570p; MoBo: HP model: 17A7 v: KBC Version 42.35
Dual core  i5-3320M (-MT-MCP-)
Intel 3. Gen Graphics (Ivybridge) Driver:i915/ intel
 Wifi Intel Centrino N6205

UP2L8

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #42 on: 2014/10/27, 18:51:41 »
No harm done.  Your English is light years ahead of my German, of which I know almost nothing.

Offline clubex

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #43 on: 2014/10/30, 12:09:53 »
Just to add to the debate  It seems that SuSE has it's reservations.

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65877-systemd-but-no-journald-in-new-suse-release

devil: As I stated earlier, for me the "original systemd" was up to version 2.5 or maybe 2.8. After that IMO it started to fail to be just an init system.

Today I once again tried apt-cache showpkg libsystemd0 and got the following dependents
Code: [Select]
apt-cache showpkg libsystemd0
Reverse Depends:
  uuid-runtime,libsystemd0
  bsdutils,libsystemd0
  packagekit,libsystemd0
  libmutter0e,libsystemd0
  mate-session-manager,libsystemd0
  libguestfs0,libsystemd0
  knot-libs,libsystemd0
  knot,libsystemd0
  cups-daemon,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-settings-daemon,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-session,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-screensaver,libsystemd0
  apt-cacher-ng,libsystemd0
  acpi-fakekey,libsystemd0
  libsystemd0:i386,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  libsystemd0:i386,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  weston,libsystemd0
  uuid-runtime,libsystemd0
  bsdutils,libsystemd0
  udisks2,libsystemd0
  transmission-daemon,libsystemd0
  tgt,libsystemd0
  systemd-dbg,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  systemd,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  python3-systemd,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  libsystemd-dev,libsystemd0 215-5+b1
  syslog-ng-core,libsystemd0
  stunnel4,libsystemd0
  spice-vdagent,libsystemd0
  remctl-server,libsystemd0
  realmd,libsystemd0
  pulseaudio,libsystemd0
  libpulse0,libsystemd0
  libpolkit-gobject-1-0,libsystemd0
  libpolkit-backend-1-0,libsystemd0
  php5-fpm,libsystemd0
  packagekit,libsystemd0
  onak,libsystemd0
  nsca-ng-server,libsystemd0
  network-manager,libsystemd0
  libmutter0e,libsystemd0
  mpd,libsystemd0
  monopd,libsystemd0
  mate-session-manager,libsystemd0
  mate-screensaver,libsystemd0
  light-locker,libsystemd0
  libvirt0,libsystemd0
  libvirt-daemon-system,libsystemd0
  libvirt-daemon,libsystemd0
  libvirt-clients,libsystemd0
  libguestfs0,libsystemd0
  lbcd,libsystemd0
  knot-libs,libsystemd0
  knot,libsystemd0
  iodine,libsystemd0
  inn,libsystemd0
  libghc-libsystemd-journal-dev,libsystemd0
  gvfs-daemons,libsystemd0
  gnome-system-monitor,libsystemd0
  gnome-shell,libsystemd0
  gnome-session-bin,libsystemd0
  gnome-logs,libsystemd0
  gnome-disk-utility,libsystemd0
  libgdm1,libsystemd0
  gdm3,libsystemd0
  fcgiwrap,libsystemd0
  erlang-base-hipe,libsystemd0
  erlang-base,libsystemd0
  dbus-1-dbg,libsystemd0
  dbus,libsystemd0
  cups-daemon,libsystemd0
  colord,libsystemd0
  clamav-daemon,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-settings-daemon,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-session,libsystemd0
  cinnamon-screensaver,libsystemd0
  beanstalkd,libsystemd0
  apt-cacher-ng,libsystemd0
  acpi-fakekey,libsystemd0
  libaccountsservice0,libsystemd0

Try it with dbus which is dependent on systemd. IMO it's even more frightening.

I think that speaks for itself. I've not kept a strict check (I've better things to do like staying alive) but I don't remember cups being dependent on systemd when I last tried. Cups?




Offline devil

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #44 on: 2014/10/30, 14:20:39 »
Quote
Just to add to the debate  It seems that SuSE has it's reservations.


For a start: This is about SLES, an enterprise OS, they need to think about your customers. Red Hat had no problem to ship systemd completely with RHEL 7 though.


I understand to a point that SUSE uses wicked (homegrown) instead of systemd-networkd. What I do not understand at all is using rsyslog instead of journal.


greetz
devil