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Author Topic: [EN] The benefits of siduction without bloat?  (Read 1353 times)

Offline mbx

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[EN] The benefits of siduction without bloat?
« on: 2022/02/21, 14:46:30 »
Hi there,

I'm really new to Linux when it comes to daily usage, instead I only had contact to Linux in the server world. I've set up some Debian servers and I absolutely love Debian for its stability. Now I want to make the next step and install Linux on my machine and give it a try as a daily driver.

Here I've to make a choice. I really like the idea to get a rolling distro to live on the edge, but I also want it to be Debian based to improve my Debian specific knowledge as well. I'm a big fan of apt and I like systemd for its well known standard, for me it's the right choice to go with a Debian based distro. I had a look on Ubuntu, but I don't like the bloat and redundancy it introduced to Debian, i.e. netplan that replaces the basic network interfaces config, which sounds really unnecessary to me. I really want to be as close as possible to Debian.

Now I could just install Debian sid or testing, but I don't want to do things that devs didn't intend with their software to be done. Sid and testing is really for preparing the next Debian stable and is not designed for daily use, so I came across siduction and I'm interested.

What I really like is the fact that siduction devs seem provide some patches in some instances to address issues with sid and provide a full blown solution distro that is meant to be a daily driver. Also a dedicated place to ask for help is really useful, especially since this is also a German community, although I still prefer English to reach more people.

However, I really want to get siduction without bloat and without any desktop environment. I want to install suckless dwm on-top of it. So what I am basically after is a deb source branch that is based on sid, but provides additional fixes and has additional eyes by devs, simply a well-managed Debian sid for more stability.

So, is siduction providing this? I.e. by using a different deb source that is based on sid or using an additional siduction deb source? Also, does siduction replace core packages to handle the very basic stuff (i.e. using netplan and other things) or does it stay true to the Debian fundamentals?

Does it even makes sense to ask for an un-bloated siduction at this point? So, am I better off installing Debian sid as well as doing some changes to benefit from the siduction repositories?

In either case, I would enjoy some assistance on how to choose and what to do to benefit from siduction.

I really want to stay as close as possible to the any main distro, but I also really don't want to install bloat just to leave it aside. Maybe another distro is better for me, if so, which would be recommend?

Thanks so much in advance!

Offline mbx

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Re: The benefits of siduction without bloat?
« Reply #1 on: 2022/02/21, 17:19:51 »
Okay I did some research today and I think I will try to use Debian sid with siduction fix debs, I just wonder, will apt fetch fixes from siduction when I added those debs automatically?

Offline edlin

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Re: The benefits of siduction without bloat?
« Reply #2 on: 2022/02/21, 17:55:30 »
Hello @mbx,
welcome to siduction!
I myself use Debian since potato and have already decided early for sid, because I always get very current packages there. I went all the way from Knoppix to Kanotix to siduction. Siduction is for me (in contrast to Ubuntu) a distribution that has been adapted only slightly. In return, siduction is very well maintained by a very small team.
Since you already have experience with Debian in the server area, I see no problems for you.
Install the version that comes closest to what you want. I use KDE/Plasma, but for you LXQt or Xorg might be as good.

Welcome and have fun with siduction,

edlin

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Der Kluge lernt aus allem und von jedem,
der Normale aus seinen Erfahrungen
und der Dumme weiß alles besser.

Sokrates

Online hendrikL

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Re: The benefits of siduction without bloat?
« Reply #3 on: 2022/02/21, 18:17:57 »
One little thing, we build with --install-recommends, some people hate that, we know!

In short, try to  install with the option '--no-install-recommends' for example, kde, mate, gnome or xfce, you will have a lot of fun, I promise you and no one will be able to help you to find out what is missing!

And as explained by edlin, we are a very small team and do not have the time to sort out what can go and what have to stay!

Help is always welcome!

So if you want a tiny sid, choose our "nox iso" and start from scratch, or use the xorg image (fluxbox), remove what you don't need and build around your system.

hendrikL


Offline dibl

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Re: The benefits of siduction without bloat?
« Reply #4 on: 2022/02/21, 19:52:10 »
Quote from: mbx
....
In either case, I would enjoy some assistance on how to choose and what to do to benefit from siduction.

I really want to stay as close as possible to the any main distro, but I also really don't want to install bloat just to leave it aside. Maybe another distro is better for me, if so, which would be recommend?...

In 2008 I was exactly where you are -- sick and tired of MS putting their fingers into my system and into my wallet, and determined to make another OS work for me. I distro-hopped for 2 years, starting with Ubuntu, on to Fedora, e-live, Arch, Slax, Debian, etc. When I tried sidux, I found I was learning more about Debian than when I ran Debian stable, and I appreciated that the software packages were newer versions than stable used. So here I am still -- no need to try anything more.

My main hobby is genealogy, and because the best genealogy tools are designed for Windows, I need to run a Windows VM. (Tried dual booting -- no comparison to having your Linux system available while using the Windows VM). I also consulted for a number of years, up until last year, and that company required that I keep their data encrypted. So I built a 10 GB encrypted file and used Zulucrypt to access it. So my main productive siduction system is a little complex, with qemu/KVM and Zulucrypt along with other productivity software. A few years ago, I built a setup to convert all of my recorded music, from 78, 45, and 33.3 rpm records to digital. That was complicated, both hardware and software. My point is, siduction IS Debian and is fully capable to support all kinds of productive work.

However, sid sometimes gets a little broken, and you have to have that possibility in mind every time you run "apt full-upgrade". This forum has an Upgrade Warnings topic, and you need to check that if there is any doubt about packages to be upgraded. For example, in my case, I'm always alert for qemu, libvirt, KVM, libcrypt, and zulucrypt and nvidia upgrades, because if one of those comes in broken, I will have a non-functional system until I fix it.

Also, with other Linux distros you can usually set up their source repos and be done forever. That is not the case with siduction. You should set up the debian experimental repo, but leave it commented out until you need it. You also could find you need the debian stable repo at some time, for a particular package that is broken in sid. I have wire-desktop repo enabled because I use wire. So you will spend a little more time adjusting your repos with siduction that you did with Ubuntu.

On your second question, yes, some "fixed" packages will be automatically pulled in from the siduction unstable/fixes repo, but you also might need the siduction experimental repo. For that one you will use "apt install -t experimental packagename" to get a particular package.

I hope this helps build your confidence that siduction is a great choice for a linux enthusiast.
« Last Edit: 2022/02/21, 20:01:41 by dibl »
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Offline mbx

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Re: The benefits of siduction without bloat?
« Reply #5 on: 2022/02/22, 02:14:02 »
Thank you for the warm welcome and the insight, everybody. Today I had some time to wrap my head around a few things.

I thank you Hendrik, for telling me about the siduction noX ISO, this is really what I would pick to go forward. Also thank you dibl for taking your time to introduce me to siduction as well as sharing your personal experience. Today I also looked at SparkyLinux which is rather build on the testing repos and I played around with Debian as well.

I'm still drawn to more directions right now, there are still things to answer for myself. "testing" or "unstable" as well as simply adding more repository sources to Debian vs getting the proper ISO. Actually, I learned about debsecan which allows to find packages that need quick fixes from the testing repo, since the testing packages can stall, even on hot fixes. I found a way to pull hot fixes from unstable while maintaining only testing packages automatically, so I might be better off going for testing repos as sources.

Tomorrow I have to continue my regular work and I'm not on Windows, I'm on Mac OS btw. I'm still looking forward to make the transition via dual boot soon, I'm just unsure if I really should tackle sid. I have to sleep over it.

I have one final question though: If I decide to go for sid, what is the benefit of the siduction noX ISO compared to Debian with adjusted sources?

Offline dibl

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Re: The benefits of siduction without bloat?
« Reply #6 on: 2022/02/22, 19:13:59 »
Without knowing what your productive working requirements are, i.e. what you need your computer to do for you every day, it's pretty impossible to know which of your gazillion OS choices would be well-suited for your purposes. 
System76 Oryx Pro, Intel Core i7-11800H, SSD 970 EVO Plus;  Asus ROG STRIX X299-E, Core i7-7740X, Nvidia GTX-1060, dual monitors, SSD 860 EVO

Offline mbx

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Re: The benefits of siduction without bloat?
« Reply #7 on: 2022/02/23, 16:59:47 »
I agree and I will figure it out, thanks again.