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Offline devil

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Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« on: 2013/05/31, 20:05:35 »
Who uses systemd already? Tell us your impressions, pros and cons and any tricks and cheats you found. Tell us what needs to be handled differently and what does not work as expected.

For whoever does not yet use it, but wants to understand it, here is the programmer himself busting the myths that have grown over the years: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html

Please also tell us if you like us to include systemd, when and why.

Thanks in advance for helping us to make a good decision if to include systemd in siduction sometime this year or not.

greetz
devil

Offline DeepDayze

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RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #1 on: 2013/06/01, 01:56:36 »
Will there be a migration tool provided to migrate existing initscripts to systemd?

Offline timc

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RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #2 on: 2013/06/01, 02:45:04 »
I don't want systemd, so if you add it, please try to make it an option.

Tim
Gigabyte Z68A-D3-B3, Intel i5-2500K, 8 GB DDR3, 2-Seagate SATA III RAID-0 btrfs, ATI HD6770, Samsung BX2440

Offline DeepDayze

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Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #3 on: 2013/06/01, 04:41:53 »
Quote from: "timc"
I don't want systemd, so if you add it, please try to make it an option.

Tim


I second that...perhaps make this a setting in the installer

Offline devil

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Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #4 on: 2013/06/01, 09:27:06 »
Tim,

would you mind telling us why?

greetz
devil

Offline timc

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RE: Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #5 on: 2013/06/01, 13:32:50 »
Sure. Others have stated this much better than I can, but the ideas came to me as soon as I started seeing what systemd does in Arch Linux, about a year ago. It not only takes the responsibilities of an init system, but also the functions of udev, dbus, system logging, and possibly others.

In my opinion, this major bundling of functionality reduces my software freedom of choice. It does not fit with the Linux principle of "do one thing and do it right".

Maybe my thinking is unsound, but that is the way I feel about it.

Thanks,
Tim
Gigabyte Z68A-D3-B3, Intel i5-2500K, 8 GB DDR3, 2-Seagate SATA III RAID-0 btrfs, ATI HD6770, Samsung BX2440

Offline bluelupo

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Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #6 on: 2013/06/01, 13:36:39 »
hi all,
I systemd tested and found to have two virtual machines such as the the run level (there are actually no longer in systemd) 3 and 5 do not fit anymore. Also from the Grub boot manager I can not boot into runlevel third Otherwise, I can report a very fast boot process, which is minden least shortened by half (although not measured).

I would find it very beneficial when siduction soon switching to systemd.

Offline michaa7

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Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #7 on: 2013/06/01, 14:13:47 »
Quote from: "bluelupo"
...
I would find it very beneficial when siduction soon switching to systemd.


I am quite sure devil did start this survey to get a feeling of how solid systemd currently is. And I am also sure he and the other team members won't decide to activate systemd *by default* until it is near to rock solid, easily supportable and managable in almost each situation by the less skilled siduction users.
Doing otherwise would make siduction less attractive and lead to a more elite distribution.
BTW, from the few words we can read so far about personal experience with systemd I am afraid activating it soon would raise not only my blood pressure in many occasions ... ;-)
Ok, you can't code, but you still might be able to write a bug report for Debian's sake

Offline dibl

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RE: Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #8 on: 2013/06/01, 14:42:26 »
I admit I am only a spectator to the systemd development.  But I did give the linked blog a thorough reading.  I must say Lennart expresses himself well and makes excellent arguments for the design of systemd.  Perhaps it's time for me to use a siduction VM and see what I can learn about systemd by installing it.

As far as the official released siduction, well, being sid, I would think we should support "new" whenever it is also "better".  If it can be offered at first as an installation option (I don't actually know whether that is possible), then we can really find out how much people love it or hate it.
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Offline piper

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RE: Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #9 on: 2013/06/01, 15:23:19 »
I have not tested as of yet, doing a google search on it and reading, I might not.

The question is, does systemd actually accomplish anything better ?

I don't care if it boots my system faster, (starting services in parallell) that, to me, is not a reason at all to use it. I, personally could care less.

If my system took 3-5 minutes to boot and was totally stable and worked fine once booted, I am happy.

So many people are concerned about boot time, I could care less. (were talking desktops here, a "work" environment "servers, patches, downtime, etc" might be different).

For administration, nothing is simpler than sysvinit

A couple of links (old)

http://www.jonmasters.org/blog/2011/04/29/response-to-why-systemd/

http://monolight.cc/2011/05/the-systemd-fallacy/

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html

https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/debian_systemd/

http://wiki.debian.org/systemd

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=103479

In the end, Choice is good
Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline bluelupo

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RE: Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #10 on: 2013/06/01, 15:50:18 »
A key advantage of systemd is, besides the parallelization of services, even very early in the boot process, the onset of logging (journald). This helps a lot better than the "old" syslog service in the search of problems. For this reason alone I would want to use systemd already.

Offline dibl

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RE: Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #11 on: 2013/06/01, 16:07:33 »
Well, I can now testify that it was a 20-minute project, mainly reading the Debian wiki, to install systemd on my siduction RazorQt VM.  I put systemd-sysv on hold to overcome the conflict with sysvinit.  The VM boots flawlessly  -- there were no issues at all.  So maybe there could be some issues with hardware -- I'll try it on a laptop when time permits.

EDIT:  Question:  Since init 3 is no longer effective on a systemd installation, what is the recommended method to stop the xserver before dist-upgrade?  I did this:

Code: [Select]
# service lightdm stop && exit

Is that sufficient?
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Offline piper

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RE: Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #12 on: 2013/06/01, 16:38:26 »
I can't remember, I  *think   (what I have in my notes)

init 3

Code: [Select]
graphical.target stop service

init 5

Code: [Select]
service start graphical.target

A good read

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/

I believe for fedora (cheat sheet) not sure with debian, I don't use so can't test

http://crashmag.net/useful-systemd-commands
Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline piper

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RE: Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #13 on: 2013/06/01, 16:40:19 »
Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline DeepDayze

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Survey on systemd Who uses it?
« Reply #14 on: 2013/06/01, 16:54:27 »
Quote from: "dibl"
Well, I can now testify that it was a 20-minute project, mainly reading the Debian wiki, to install systemd on my siduction RazorQt VM.  I put systemd-sysv on hold to overcome the conflict with sysvinit.  The VM boots flawlessly  -- there were no issues at all.  So maybe there could be some issues with hardware -- I'll try it on a laptop when time permits.

EDIT:  Question:  Since init 3 is no longer effective on a systemd installation, what is the recommended method to stop the xserver before dist-upgrade?  I did this:

Code: [Select]
# service lightdm stop && exit

Is that sufficient?


Good info for creating a wiki for switching an existing install which is currently using SysV-style initscripts to Systemd. If there are a lot of benefits for switching to Systemd vis a vis SysV then perhaps systemd should be installed in siduction by default on a fresh install.

From what I see in that Debian devel list posting, the system logs are in a binary format vs a plaintext format for SysV. Are tools provided to read these binary system logs whenever debugging some issue or in looking for errors to document in some bug report?