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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit  (Read 14179 times)

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Offline clubex

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Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« on: 2014/10/14, 11:50:57 »
http://www.linuxtoday.com/upload/debian-leader-says-users-can-continue-with-sysvinit-141012174011.html

To me this hints there is more going on behind the scenes at Debian than we are privy to.

I posted the URL for the Linux Today page instead of going right to the article because the accompanying comment expresses one of my concerns about systemd. ie too much done by a single entity and the consequent lack of cofiguration of the init process plus the continuing dependency of parts of the system (eg Gnome) on systemd.. For me this restricts my freedom to construct the system the way I like it. And I always feel that there is an aura of something hidden, inaccessible and doctrinaire surrounding systemd which I do not like..

Just my view.

Offline musca

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #1 on: 2014/10/16, 13:46:35 »
Hello clubex,

i ignored the whole discussion for a year but now i surrender and post a comment.

Modern operating systems, desktops, applications (and webservices) are complex and no single person is able to keep control about everything. Even the most advanced system architects need to trust others. You do trust the gnome developers, you do trust the kernel developers, and you even do trust the GNU compiler guys and the firmware and microcode programmers. You keep trust in 2500 Debian people (devs+maintainers) and you use far more than 1000 packages even in small installs.  How many source packages did you download to review the code? Do you discuss compiler options or build options?  There are so many details that somebody did already decide on. If you would not trust how could you use Debian Gnu/Linux or any derivative distribution?

My point of view is: It is a modern miracle that you, clubex, have the freedom to get engaged with every aspect of open source development and that the result is still useable for me.

I think there is less going on behind the scenes than we imagine. The lengthy discussion about initsystems was decided like thousand other details before and now the debian developers are back to work. Did you notice the enormous amount of packages that recently comes in with every dist-upgrade? The developers are in a hurry to get their packages updated before the freeze. I think debian is in good shape and i enjoy being part of it.

greetings
musca
„Es irrt der Mensch, solang er strebt.“  (Goethe, Faust)

Offline piper

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #2 on: 2014/10/16, 14:01:14 »
musca, very good post, I agree
Free speech isn't just fucking saying what you want to say, it's also hearing what you don't want to fucking hear

I either give too many fucks or no fucks at all, it's like I cannot find a middle ground for a moderate fuck distribution, it's like what the fuck

Offline dibl

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #3 on: 2014/10/16, 19:05:27 »
+1
Asus ROG STRIX X299-E, Core i7-7740X, Nvidia GTX-1060, dual monitors, SSD 860 EVO, 2@WD1003FZEX in BTRFS

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #4 on: 2014/10/16, 19:33:20 »
+1

And for those who think they are able (and willing) to do all the distribution things by themself there is a nice and well known distribution:

Arch Linux!  https://www.archlinux.org/static/magazine/2008/newsletter-2008-Jun-02.html#contributed

But wait - eventually not so clever - the arch devs decided a long time ago to go with systemd 8)
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

Offline clubex

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UP2L8

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #6 on: 2014/10/18, 08:08:22 »
+1

And for those who think they are able (and willing) to do all the distribution things by themself there is a nice and well known distribution:

Arch Linux!  https://www.archlinux.org/static/magazine/2008/newsletter-2008-Jun-02.html#contributed

But wait - eventually not so clever - the arch devs decided a long time ago to go with systemd 8)
There's always Slackware.   8)

Offline clubex

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #7 on: 2014/10/18, 15:03:05 »
If you read the correspondence I quoted you will see that what is being advocated is that there should be a real choice of init system. Note how quickly the original posting was answered by all concerned. It looks to me as if, thankfully, Debian is aware that the freedom of choice is being diminished. There is no hint of removing systemd or sysvinit.

As for the knee jerk reactions:-

UP2LB: If that a genuine suggestion then I thank you for it. But it's a two-fingered suggestion then you have no idea what freedom is about. You don't jump ship when freedom is attacked, you fight to restore it.

Quote from musca on 16 October 2014

Quote
My point of view is: It is a modern miracle that you, clubex, have the freedom to get engaged with every aspect of open source development and that the result is still usable for me.

It is not a miracle it is/was the backbone of open source development from the very beginning. It  has been worked on by people who have desired that freedom and have been consistent in their aims. By the way pointing me out as clubex in your quote can, to an English man, be viewed as preaching and treating me as inferior to you. Not nice.

IMHO and in the opinion of others systemd has it's claws in too much of the system and is intent on absorbing more and more (ie. ntp,cron etc). Even some userspace applications have their libraries as dependencies. eg.why should Gnome have a dependency on which init system is used? Is it the job of the init system to decide what user space application I can use? Of course it isn't.

Soon systemd will have embedded itself so deeply that there will be no alternative init system. So where will my/your freedom to choose which init system to use be then? Sysvinit might seem primitive but at least it didn't intrude on the province of other parts of the system.

I have been dabbling in Linux since the version 0.1 days but now I'm too old to contribute other than with bug reports. The movement for freedom in software developmnt began soon after and IMO the best thing that has ever happen to software development But when I see the freedom so earnestly fought for by countless others over many years swept away for among other such trivial reasons as faster boot times (generally for the convenience of laptop users) then I feel a great sorrow for the open source community.

UP2L8

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #8 on: 2014/10/18, 17:51:09 »
@clubex:  It was a genuine suggestion and it was made because Slackware is referenced as an alternative distro on the boycottsystemd site.

I have no influence on what Debian or any other distro does other than to switch when they do something major that I do not like.  Linux is about freedom of choice; if you don't like something in one distro, go find another.

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #9 on: 2014/10/18, 20:31:28 »
I've had the systemd discussions so often in the last year, that i lost the will to argue about - my answer to any of such discussions is: a) take it as it is, b) make your own thing upon your distribution of choice, c) choose a distribution that fit best for your needs. If it is siduction, fine, great - if not - fine, great.

Linux is about choice - partially right - Example: In case of consolekit there are no alternatives than systemd. Consolekit is unmaintained and bitrotten for years. So one can decide: Use dead code without any upstream support or use a active developed project to fulfill the needs of the project - the gnome guys taken the second choice :)

So if one don't like systemd - provide the needed functionality outside of systemd and everything is good. But don't expect other people to do this for you, If they decide that systemd perfectly fit their needs, this is their choice. It isn't the responsibilty of a project that develop a DE to do the plumbing :) - Btw. Gnome was only a prominent example, other DEs will follow, like KDE and others. If one is willing to fight for his freedom: Don't talk about choices and freedom, provide code that make sense.

My 2 ¢
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

UP2L8

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #10 on: 2014/10/19, 22:07:43 »
Not everyone is a coder or wants to code, so I do not agree with your statement.

Offline melmarker

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #11 on: 2014/10/20, 01:32:49 »
ok - but imagine: you live in a village and have only two restaurants: a italian and a french one. No go in and order sushi - i don't think you will get it there.

Maybe one time the italian restaurant is sold to a japanese guy - lucky one, you get your sushi - but to be true - if the pizza and pasta remains - i don't wanna test them.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Benjamin Franklin, November 11, 1755)
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlons razor)

Offline musca

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #12 on: 2014/10/21, 01:30:06 »
Hello clubex,
Sorry, no personal offence was intended by me. Of course I don't think any individuals would be inferior, and i appreciate you as an active member of our forum. Let me apologize my weird wording as i'm not a native english speaker. I wanted to stress that so many individuals are involved in the process and that they -how ever- have to manage to find a compromise and that this also applied to you and me.

sincerely
musca
« Last Edit: 2014/10/21, 01:33:11 by musca »
„Es irrt der Mensch, solang er strebt.“  (Goethe, Faust)

Offline clubex

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Re: Debian users will still be able to use syvinit
« Reply #13 on: 2014/10/21, 11:15:51 »
Thanks musca. Understood.

Offline devil

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